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TO&E Bug? Missing MG in Panzergrenadier squads.


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Having recently purchased CMFB, I've done my usual fiddling with mods and such. I've noticed that Panzergrenadier squads (both Waffen-SS and Heer) are missing one of their MGs.

The problem occurs when the gunner is inside the squad leader element. He is instead armed with a rifle, while keeping his pistol. I've also noticed that the Company commander and his 2IC have an MG inside their elements.

f256bbd91c.jpg

Before anyone asks, no, mods do not modify TO&E.

Edited by Frenchy56
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I've just fired up "Meijel Mayhem" to have a look. When the reinforcements show up in one platoon all three squads have only one MG. Whilst in the second platoon two squads are as per yours, whilst the third has both of it's MGs. 

Whether that is an accurate reflection of how things were in the autumn and winter of 44/45 I don't know. But, at least you know it isn't anything to do with your copy of the game

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No, this isn't a bug. Depending on what the map-maker sets the equipment standards too Pz.Grenadiers will lack their paper-strength of two MGs. This was a deliberate decision in FB to capture the relative haste with which the German army groups in the west were reborn. I am fairly confident the manual states as such at some point.

Try putting a Panzergrenadier battalion in editor with 'excellent' equipment and you will see them with 2 x MGs, I am confident. 

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1 hour ago, Frenchy56 said:

Yes, as I said, the problem only seems to occur when the gunner is in the same element as the squad leader.

I'll use this post to call our Lord and Savior @BFCElvis so he can log this. By the way, where did Oliver Cromwell go?

It's still noddle head. Just the "after death" version.

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19 minutes ago, Rinaldi said:

No, this isn't a bug. Depending on what the map-maker sets the equipment standards too Pz.Grenadiers will lack their paper-strength of two MGs. This was a deliberate decision in FB to capture the relative haste with which the German army groups in the west were reborn. I am fairly confident the manual states as such at some point.

Try putting a Panzergrenadier battalion in editor with 'excellent' equipment and you will see them with 2 x MGs, I am confident. 

Yep, also rather thought of equipment quality and possibly headcount editor settings. Late war germans lacked almost everything, including small arms. Would love to see "Beutewaffen" (foreign, captured arms) for germans in use in next CMFB module. Or those MG´s taken from airforce units (MG15 & 17) or even some vintage 08/15 pulled from the depots.

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Okay then, I had a suspicion that it could have been that too. Strange that Nazi Germany had more machinegunners than it had machine guns at that point, a matter of having the right stuff at the right place and time, then?

I usually forget about the unit quality selection, since it's quite hard to notice.

 

1 hour ago, Warts 'n' all said:

It's still noddle head. Just the "after death" version.

Oh, sorry, didn't recognize. He looks like he put off a bit of weight.

Edited by Frenchy56
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7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Yep, also rather thought of equipment quality and possibly headcount editor settings. Late war germans lacked almost everything, including small arms. Would love to see "Beutewaffen" (foreign, captured arms) for germans in use in next CMFB module. Or those MG´s taken from airforce units (MG15 & 17) or even some vintage 08/15 pulled from the depots.

Yes that would be nice. I mean I dont want to advertise a competitor here, but one thing I like about the Steel Division games is that you have access to substandard troops with weird equipment, like the MG26(t), captured russian weapons etc. Considering the amount of different tank variants, imo Combat Mission could use some more granularity here.

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2 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

Yes that would be nice. I mean I dont want to advertise a competitor here, but one thing I like about the Steel Division games is that you have access to substandard troops with weird equipment, like the MG26(t), captured russian weapons etc. Considering the amount of different tank variants, imo Combat Mission could use some more granularity here.

If you can prove that there were formations equipped with those during that time period in that area, go right ahead.

Edited by Frenchy56
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9 hours ago, Frenchy56 said:

If you can prove that there were formations equipped with those during that time period in that area, go right ahead.

well it´s a known fact that germans made use of any captured stuff they could put their hands on. Right from occupation of czechoslovakia until the very end. With regard to small arms and particularly late war (from mid 44 onwards) even more foreign weapons were distributed either to new (rebuilt) or rather substandard (fortress, ersatz, volkssturm..) formations as well as the beloved Waffengrenadiers (czech MG26t in example). Use of the Ppsh41 at the eastern front as well was a more or less common occurance. But not speaking of full formations equipped with that stuff exclusively. It´s always the K98 (and foreign derivates), MG34/42 beeing base weaponry but then supplemented with mentioned foreign guns when needed. Weapon losses after Normandy and Bagration were particularly heavy and production couldn´t cope with that, also considering german messy production policies. Generally if one aims for bits of realism for that last year of the war, one should set german formation quality rather to low than high IMO. Not even Waffengrenadiers or Para´s had all the stuff they needed, particularly the last waves of new formations raised in 1944/45. But it would be all more for flavor in the game, not necessarily better game play. Nice to see, but not a must have.

Edited by RockinHarry
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On 9/25/2019 at 11:40 PM, Warts 'n' all said:

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember that you made an entire series of CM videos where you hurled expletives at both the scenario designers, and BFC. And then adding insult to injury you plugged another game ad nauseum.

Well what can I say, if I see my troops getting mowed down on a bugged bridge with tanks glitching through it repeatedly, I turn into General Patton. Especially in a game where you have to buy your patches... I mean I will still play and film the new modules because all in all the game is fun, but let's not pretend that there aren't deep seated and basic issues with this game series that the team is either unwilling or unable to fix.

Edited by Ts4EVER
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No, that was regarding your first point. I didn't think I had to address the second, considering that on my own youtube channel I can plug whatever game I want. This here is not my Youtube channel, but a forum paid for by the company making the game, so the situation is quite different. That being said, I find it weird that you consider our completely free BF2 mod a "competitor" to Combat Mission.

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8 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

game where you have to buy your patches

Buzzzzt - incorrect. Patches have always been free. Something I think you know.

 

8 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

but let's not pretend that there aren't deep seated and basic issues with this game series that the team is either unwilling or unable to fix.

Yeah, not happy with that statement either. Every bridge bug I have reported has been fixed. Got a problem save it and report it. I will grant you that move orders involving bridges need to be handled with care to get good results. Traffic jams suck, traffic jams on bridges suck way way way more.

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On 9/27/2019 at 2:22 PM, IanL said:

Buzzzzt - incorrect. Patches have always been free. Something I think you know.

Just because they call it an "engine upgrade" doesn't mean it's more than a patch. Bug fixes and quality of life improvements behind a paywall are on the same level as those silly loot boxes they have in "triple A" games. Also nice from warts and all to apparently completely leave behind the point of "plugging new games", instead looping back to the start, ensuring that the conversation will go nowhere. But I guess at least you displayed what you mistake for wit, so congrats.

Anyway, to actually return to the way more interesting discussion of this thread:

On 9/26/2019 at 12:34 AM, Frenchy56 said:

If you can prove that there were formations equipped with those during that time period in that area, go right ahead.

Well, let's look at the monthly reports of different divisions. This time around the late 1944 era, since we are in the Ardennes game forum.

Quote

15. Panzergrenadier-Division (Took part in the battle of the bulge)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

8.081 x Karabiner
290 x Gewehr-Granat-Gerät
698 x Maschinenpistolen
1.970 x Pistolen
214 x Gewehr 43
14 x Zielfernrohrgewehre

II. Beutewaffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

38 x Maschinenpistolen (ital.) (Beretta MPs)
40 x Maschinenpistolen (engl.) (british smgs, maybe Thompsons or Stens?)
25 x Pistolen (ital.)

Quote

49. Infanterie-Division (Destroyed near Aachen)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)
3.563 x Karabiner und Gewehre
180 x Gewehre 41 und 43
56 x Gewehrgranat-Gerät
174 x Maschinenpistole 38/40
50 x Maschinenpistole 44
1.159 x Pistolen
2 x 5cm Granatwerfer 36
6 x 8,8cm Raketenwerfer (Püppchen) (nicht eingesetzt)

II. Beutewaffen
10 x 8,5/8,8cm Flak M 19 (r) (russian heavy flak)
1 x 4,5cm Pak (r)
1 x 8,14cm Granatwerfer 278 (f) (french mortars)
3 x leichte Maschinengewehre 116 (f) (FM24/29 lmg, available in the upcoming Italian dlc)
1 x leichtes Maschinengewehr 311 (f)
14 x leichte Maschinengewehre (dä) (Madsen lmg)
36 x leichte Maschinengewehre 26 (t)
34 x Maschinenpistolen (e) (british smgs again)
1 x Maschinenpistolen (f) (very rare French smg, maybe Mas 38?)
25 x Maschinenpistolen (i) (Beretta, as always)
21 x Pistolen (b)
1 x Pistole (f)
7 x Pistolen (t)
32 x Pistolen (p)
77 x Gewehre (t)
26 x Gewehre (p) (bunch of foreign pistols and rifles)

Quote

715. Infanterie-Division (fought against the Soviets in 1944 - 1945) (Also apparently had more Beretta MPs than MP40s...)

Waffenart-Ist:
7.495 x Gewehre
277 x Selbstladegewehre
61 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
271 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
1.104 x Pistolen 08/38
644 x sonstige Pistolen
228 x Leuchtpistolen
185 x Maschinenpistolen 38/40
5 x leichte Maschinengewehre
3 x mittlere Granatwerfer
1 x schwerer Granatwerfer
21 x Ofenrohre
2 x schwere Infanterie-Geschütze 33

Beutewaffen:
254 x Maschinenpistolen (i)
180 x Beutegewehre (i) (Carcano rifles, also already ingame)
21 x mittlere Granatwerfer (i)
20 x 4,5cm Granatwerfer (i)
4 x mittlere Granatwerfer (r)
6 x leichte Maschinengewehre (f) (more fm 24/29)
1 x 7,5cm leichte Feld-Kanone 72/27 (i)

Quote

32. Infanterie-Division (from the Kurland Pocket)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in der Kriegsgliederung nicht enthalten)
6.495 x Karabiner
23 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
165 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
58 x Selbstladegewehre
215 x Maschinenpistolen (40) + 1.374 Sturmgewehre (44)
1.412 x Pistolen

II. Beutewaffen
(nur Granatwerfer, Maschinengewehre und Gewehre)
5 x mittlere Granatwerfer (r)
66 x leichte Maschinengewehre (r) (geändert für deutsche Munition) (DP1927 lmgs retooled for German ammunition)

Lastly, for the Red Thunder game;

Quote

256. Infanterie-Division (Destroyed during Operation Bagration)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

7.106 x Karabiner
81 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
162 x Gewehr 41
360 x Gewehr-Granat-Gerät
702 x Maschinenpistolen (davon 38 = MPi 43)
1.679 x Pistolen
65 x Panzerschreck
1 x Nebelwerfer 35
21 x leichte Maschinengewehre 08/15 (WW1 vintage!)
8 x leichte Maschinengewehr 13
2 x leichte Maschinengewehr 15 (taken from aircraft)
1 x schwere Maschinengewehre 08 (another classic from the first try!)

II. Beutewaffen

499 x Gewehre (r)
83 x leichte Maschinengewehre (r)
3 x schwere Maschinengewehre (r) (lots of Russian gear)
50 x leichte Maschinengewehre (f) (more FM 24/29, no Berettas this time though)
19 x leichte Maschinengewehre (t)
1 x leichtes Maschinengewehre (e) (a Bren? Weird)
1 x leichter Granatwerfer (r)
3 x mittlere Granatwerfer (r)
9 x mittlere Granatwerfer (f) (russian and french mortars)
9 x 4,5cm Pak (r)

In conclusion, I think it would be cool to have this kind of obsolete or foreign equipment ingame, maybe when setting equipment levels to low. Some of these weapons actually already exist ingame and the Beretta MP is already used by Germans in Fortress Italy.

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56 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

so congrats.

Thanks. 

Hopefully when you return to making CM videos they will be of the standard that we know you are capable of, rather than you get back to letting yourself down by turning the air blue as you did sadly far too often, with or without bridges. I might even consider resubscribing.

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