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New issue in 4.02? Troops reluctant to fire on spotted enemies


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On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 4:17 PM, Bulletpoint said:

Infantry often won't shoot in dense terrain. I have an idea why this happens:

The infantry squad is not split. It consists of two teams. The squad has a solid spot and a grey target line to an enemy team 80m away.

 

Here's the interesting bit: The infantry squad will not open fire on its own. BUT if I select "combine squad", the LMG gunner immediately opens fire.

So there is some kind of issue or bug at work here. A "hand brake" that keeps squads from reacting to contacts if they are not split and if only part of the squad spots the enemy.

For issue like this , it is because a squad will take two action spot. The squad leader in team A has a clear LOS on target but the LMG gunner in team B sit on adjacent does not.

 

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3 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

For issue like this , it is because a squad will take two action spot. The squad leader in team A has a clear LOS on target but the LMG gunner in team B sit on adjacent does not.

 

I think you may be right. But in that case, I'm assuming it would be better for the leader's team to open fire anyway, at least at shorter ranges where both rifles and SMG can work...

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What if the troops were conscientious objectors?  Naturally then they would be hesitant to shoot at others. Another possibility is they had very low morale, actually they were thinking about surrendering. Now I ask you. If you want to surrender you probably dont want to shoot at the troops you might be surrendering to in a few minutes.

 Another possibility is these men are hungry. They are saving their ammo for edible game to shoot. Humans are not a clean animal to eat, also there was not much cannibalism in WW2.

There are of course more reasons why men won't shoot at the enemy troops, but I suppose that would just be more speculating .

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9 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think you may be right. But in that case, I'm assuming it would be better for the leader's team to open fire anyway, at least at shorter ranges where both rifles and SMG can work...

for my best personal playing experiences I split squads anyway, quite in particular to have the (in this case oversize) lMG component at my disposal seperately. That for engaging enemies beyond normal rifle ranges (300-350m) where the lMG can do best works if terrain allows. In defense everybody else usually gets a TA of ~200m to allow for most effective surprise fire (from hidden stance) if the enemy gets into that range. Also to simulate standard german squad SOP´s that otherwise aren´t applicable when squads remain non split. The way german squads are composed in the WW2 games is not as they should be anyway. Whether if it´s for purpose of symplifying the games split team system or false application of TOE, overhauled straight after the 1939 polish campaign, I can´t tell. However, the end result is always a serious disadvantage when attempt employing squad components according to real WW2 german doctrine and SOP´s.

Currently experimenting with german Inf. platoon formations not inherently having a lMG like "Ersatz" or "Sicherung" infantry. Set infantry squads to 70% headcount and then add up to 3x lMG teams from specialist team tab to Plt HQ. Too bad one can´t add to squads directly, but in game it gives me same desired results regarding SOP´s. Off course if for C2 purposes one can keep the Plt together. Would be better though If BFC allows for splitting off a lMG team by default (instead of the unrealistic scouts). Guess this as well would  require a major overhaul of the TacAI, quite in particular for units in AIP´s hands.

Edit: IIRC BFC store once had German Squad in Combat, wartime issue in the offer. Wonder they´d selected for pre war version SOP/doctrine in games instead. :huh:

German Squad in Combat, Special Series No 9

Edited by RockinHarry
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On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:11 AM, Bulletpoint said:

Since 4.02, I'm seeing several cases of my troops deciding to not open fire on enemy troops, even though they are actively spotted and within range.

In the beginning, I thought it might be a case of the targets being out of range, but while designing a new scenario, I'm definitely seeing several cases of infantry not shooting at enemies in forests at 80m range, and armoured cars not firing on infantry at the range of some hundred metres.

The funny thing is that I can manually order them to fire, and then they start shooting. So they definitely have LOS and LOF. They just decide not to use it.

Has the TacAI targeting logic been tweaked recently?

Anyone else seeing the same thing?

If there's interest, I can of course provide save games, but I wanted to hear if it's something other people have noticed.

I'm posting this in the general forum, because I think it might be a fundamental thing with 4.02, but I'm seeing the behaviour in CMFB.

I generally use CMBN (now with 4.02) to Test Game Components, etc...

I would Setup a Squad vs enemy Squad 250-300 meters apart, stationary, Open Flat Terrain, troops fire themselves,  just to see what happens during a 15 minute Fire-Fight...The Troops would open fire for 1-2 minutes, then decide to stop shooting for most rest of the game, even when there are 2-3 troops on either side still coming in and out of LOS every turn.

I remember in older versions of CMBN with exact same conditions above, troops would shoot more often every turn and with more LOS of individual troops until just about everyone was KIA/WIA.

So...Maybe some sort of issue with 4.02, or possibly BF decided to make troops more conscious on when to fire (sort of J Bennett's thoughts) to give a better overall representation of Lower Casualties during a ranging Firefight ?

 

 

Edited by JoMc67
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1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

+1.  Interesting stuff. 

Bits more on its background. That translation is not from an official german field regulation but rather a privately published training & tactics manual from infantry school instructor Fritz Kuehlwein (Die Gruppe im Gefecht). https://www.booklooker.de/Bücher/Fritz-Kühlwein+Die-Gruppe-im-Gefecht-Die-neue-Gruppe-Ein-Handbuch-für-Lehrer-und-Schüler-Fortsetzung/id/A02nmKpj01ZZC

That to help other instructors or generally help german military personnel to put field regulations into practice by more descriptive examples. The translation is based on the 1940 wartime issue and fundamentals basically remained for the rest of the war. I have both, the 1940 issue and another prewar one in my personal possession. After 1940, Kuehlwein became divisional commander of the 45th Infantry, then Brandenburg Panzergrenadier Division at the eastern front.

Edit: Worth to know for those reading, (target) range statements are in meters in original, not yards as given by translator. Figures are the same though.

Edited by RockinHarry
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