35mm KETF round, and artillery against tanks

[Armorgunner]

This was a comment made by a danish guy at Stealbeast Forum, about the 35mm KETF ABM round. When the Danes bought the CV9035.

"the keft round is very leathal. we had a coorperation with the dutch army on testing the ABM rounds, so the dutch army had a wrecked leopard 2 that we tested the munition on, and it dented/damaged the barrel enough to make it less usable or able to disable the main gun. along with all the vision blocks, GPS, commanders sights, but as a test against small vehicles or infantry and buildings. its just as leathal. and know taliban didnt like that abm round at least.."

I have no doubt, what he says. After Reading other posts from him. I´m for shure, thats he´s an army guy. And if tungsten splinters from a 35mm, can wipe out all externals on a Leopard 2. I asume, it is an old one like A4. What would 155mm AB do? Or direkt hits? Or Close to direct hits? 

Too bad, he didn´t mentioned the number of rounds needed though.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Armorgunner

[Armorgunner]

As I wrote in my first post in this Forum

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Armorgunner

[Armorgunner]

And later by HerrTom

 

[Artkin]

Yeah we should try a test version of CM where all the artillery is stronger. This is exactly why ppl want mod tools.

I think we are getting a pretty incorrect version of how RL plays out. If explosions were realistic I think the game would play out hugely different

[Bulletpoint]

Artillery is not only underpowered against vehicles, but against infantry as well.

In a recent game of CMFB, I saw an 105mm shell go off next to a trooper standing outside in an open street - no harm done.

[chuckdyke]

19 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

In a recent game of CMFB, I saw an 105mm shell go off next to a trooper standing outside in an open street - no harm done.

We don't know what is generic and what is not in this game. Results are calculated with a roll of the dice and not what we see. I send HE to suppress because a 120 mm mortars shell is supposed to go through a roof and explode inside a house. But more often than not the infantry must finish the job. 

[akd]

4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Artillery is not only underpowered against vehicles, but against infantry as well.

In a recent game of CMFB, I saw an 105mm shell go off next to a trooper standing outside in an open street - no harm done.

You do understand this can actually happen, so the anecdote is not particularly meaningful, right?

[Erwin]

Yes, the unreliable effect of HE vs inf has always been a feature of the game.  One can barrage an area with large HE on top of enemy inf or even AFV's and still have those inf able to fight back when one's own inf attacks less than a minute later (and only have minimal damage to the AFV).

In the game one can have an aircraft drop 500-1000 lb bombs and have inf nearby still functioning.

In RL, the "blast effects" would render any inf within 25-50 meters combat ineffective, and the "overpressure" high blast pressure would kill through liquifying one's inside organs. 

Think about the relatively mild effects of "flash bangs" (often used in hostage rescue) which disable the enemy for at least 20-30 seconds.

But, hey...  it's a game...

Edited May 17, 2021 by Erwin

[Artkin]

On 5/17/2021 at 9:22 AM, akd said:

You do understand this can actually happen, so the anecdote is not particularly meaningful, right?

Wouldnt the Shockwave alone be enough to kill a person? I've heard HE shells (Shot from vehicles) can liquidify your organs while inside another vehicle. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Artkin

[Artkin]

My bad Erwin I just saw your post. Lmao.

[LongLeftFlank]

Remember, CM is at its design core a conversion of a hex-and-counter squad tactical wargame (ASL or Tobruk) to a graphical format. It isn't  going to be Arma with enhanced formation command features (and fewer superheroics), in spite of its quite nice visuals.

1. .... because CM subformations not in buildings are deploying on an invisible chessboard (the grid of Action Spots), they tend to bunch more closely than would actual troops under fire. Individuals generally conform to where the group is. This renders them vulnerable to HE.

2. the terrain cover value of each square in CM is itself abstracted.

3. slit trenches, the most basic fortification of all, are not explicitly modeled. In RL you'd need a direct hit to kill a guy in one at most tactical shell calibres. But fortifications are a separate topic....

4. since CM units must spot to be combat effective, non-cowering men are autoprogrammed to 'prairie dog' up and down, exposing themselves 360, far more than would any actual human being under heavy fire. Pixeldogs also don't have the veteran's 'sixth sense' to duck down when a round chugs in (I think this issue could be addressed). 

...In RL, troops would spot through narrow embrasures (gap between sandbags or whatever hard cover is handy), but this 'microcover' isn't easily modeled in the game. Again, fortification issue.

All these problems have been well known to BFC ever since they (wisely) traded the bobbleheads for 1 for 1 man representation in CMx2. The programming headaches are significant, and you'd always risk massive unintended consequences (e.g. troops failing to spot enemies walking right up to them).

...So their major workaround to retain play balance and stop players from standing off and shooting each other out of their holes (without bothering to maneuver or assault) has been to nerf HE blast and splinter effects somewhat. It is sensible, if not strictly WYSIWYG. HE is still a killer especially against men not in hard cover. Which is realistic, as most infantry attacks peter out once the enemy calls in mortars; continuing to move above ground is a death sentence.

[chuckdyke]

I concur with @LongLeftFlank I wonder why my sniper needed 6 shots at 360 yards to take out an RPG7 in a Foxhole. I am a little of topic, but I shared my recent experience. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by chuckdyke