Nationality-Based C2 Restrictions

[General Liederkranz]

@Bil Hardenberger noted in another thread that he wasn't able to get Syrian squads in C2 by putting them close to higher-echelon HQs. This is different from other nationalities like the WW2 Americans or Germans. For them, a squad can skip over its Platoon HQ and get C2 from its Company or Battalion HQ within voice or close visual range (which @MOS:96B2P showed to be 50 meters and 96 meters respectively). 

I thought I'd look into this and I found something interesting: it depends on the unit, and it's not just the Syrians. It seems that in nationalities organized along Soviet lines, only certain types of units are able to take advantage of the higher-echelon C2 bypass that everyone else can use.

Within a Syrian airborne battalion, for example, ordinary Airborne Infantry squads CANNOT get C2 from higher-echelon HQs. They need their Platoon HQs. I tested with Conscripts, Greens, Regulars, and Elites and none of them could, so troop quality doesn't make a difference. BUT Engineer squads in the same battalion CAN get C2 from their Company HQ. The image below shows the difference; each one is next to its Company HQ with the Platoon HQ across the map and out of sight (as you can see since the command lines are dark). The ordinary Airborne, in the inset, is out of command; the Engineers, in the rest of the image, are in command.

So then I went and looked at CMRT. There too, Soviet rifle squads CANNOT get C2 from their Company HQ. But Soviet cavalry squads CAN.

This is not because of the patch. It did some more tests and it's also that way in CMRT under Engine 4 (pre-patch) and under Engine 3. (I used the stock scenarios Dawn Patrol and Baranovichi to test rifle and cavalry respectively in each version.)

This is NOT true of the Italians in CMFI, though you might expect it since inflexible command is one of their main traits in the game. Their rifle and Bersaglieri "squads" can benefit from Platoon or Company HQs, not just their Squad HQs. 

I can only guess that this is intended to reflect Soviet-style doctrine and to give players an extra incentive to keep their Soviet-style rifle platoons together. Forces that are expected to be more independent, like engineers or cavalry, aren't penalized. It's an interesting little touch. 

Original thread: 

Edited May 29, 2019 by General Liederkranz
flipped close visual and voice distances

[Bil Hardenberger]

@General Liederkranz, brilliant stuff, I appreciate you doing those tests.  It is amazing how deep this game gets.

I wonder, did you test recon units?  Be curious if Syrian or Russian Recon units could take advantage of this feature.

Bil

[General Liederkranz]

That's an interesting question. I don't have time to do thorough tests but I set up a QB and the scenario "Going to Town" and preliminarily, it looks like in CMBS Russian rifle squads CAN get C2 directly from their company commanders, but NOT from their battalion commanders. Recon squads from the recon platoons in BTR battalions it seems CANNOT get C2 from their Bn HQs. This is a little bit complicated and time consuming to test beucase everyone has radios so all I can figure out to do is to start the battle and run the platoon leaders into enemy fire to kill them off and make sure they're not talking to anyone on the radio before I check back on their squads' C2 icons!

[A Canadian Cat]

5 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

This is a little bit complicated and time consuming to test beucase everyone has radios so all I can figure out to do is to start the battle and run the platoon leaders into enemy fire to kill them off and make sure they're not talking to anyone on the radio before I check back on their squads' C2 icons!

My supposition is that you can tell even without the HQs killed off. Move the platoon HQ far away so they are only in radio contact. Now move the company HQ closer and see if the squad gains visual and voice command. If so then they are getting it from thier company HQ. 

I am certain that I have seen this in game. Now when I say that I mean I am certain in an "it has happened to me therefore true" way rather than a tested and documented way

[Sgt.Squarehead]

8 minutes ago, IanL said:

Now when I say that I mean I am certain in an "it has happened to me therefore true" way rather than a tested and documented way

That's a very familiar experience.....I was sure I'd had Americans driving pickups until yesterday, turns out it was only taxis. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[General Liederkranz]

Thanks, that makes sense. I was trying to avoid any possible confounding variables but you're right it is just simplest to look for the voice/visual C2 icons.

[A Canadian Cat]

3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

10 minutes ago, IanL said:

Now when I say that I mean I am certain in an "it has happened to me therefore true" way rather than a tested and documented way

That's a very familiar experience.....I was sure I'd had Americans driving pickups until yesterday, turns out it was only taxis.  

Yep memory sucks. Anecdotes are unreliable. Humans eh - it's amazon we ares till alive.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I did my testing in setup phase of a scenario... worked a treat.

I think I'm going to make another edit to the Hard-Cat rules to account for these differences. This is all very interesting.  

Bil

[MOS:96B2P]

34 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

It seems that in nationalities organized along Soviet lines, only certain types of units are able to take advantage of the higher-echelon C2 bypass that everyone else can use.

Within a Syrian airborne battalion, for example, ordinary Airborne Infantry squads CANNOT get C2 from higher-echelon HQs. They need their Platoon HQs.

The ordinary Airborne, in the inset, is out of command; the Engineers, in the rest of the image, are in command.

So then I went and looked at CMRT. There too, Soviet rifle squads CANNOT get C2 from their Company HQ. But Soviet cavalry squads CAN.

This is NOT true of the Italians in CMFI, their rifle and Bersaglieri "squads" can benefit from Platoon or Company HQs, not just their Squad HQs. 

I can only guess that this is intended to reflect Soviet-style doctrine and to give players an extra incentive to keep their Soviet-style rifle platoons together. Forces that are expected to be more independent, like engineers or cavalry, aren't penalized. It's an interesting little touch. 

+ 1.  Interesting stuff.  Thanks for doing this. 

Also just curious, what skill level did you test at? 

Another example that some national Armies have slightly different rules can be found in Engine Manual 4.0 page 61: Syrian, Soviet & Italian Armies will suffer a morale penalty if split teams are out of close visual and voice C2 of the Platoon HQ.

Another reason to be surprised the Italian Army can use the C2 bypass.  

[General Liederkranz]

I did this on Iron in each game, so visual C2 wasn't automatically and required mutual spotting (but the units were close enough for that not to be a problem if I waited a few seconds). I am also puzzled by the Italians. Maybe this is a new feature introduced for the Soviets in CMRT and never applied retroactively to the Italians.

I hadn't noticed that note in the Manual. To my knowledge, there are no Italian units currently that can be split (I know that their huge "squads" are already "split" into MG+rifle+HQ elements, but I mean there are no units that come joined up that the player can split). Am I wrong about this? I imagine this is a hint of a future feature, which Steve referred to a few years ago. I'm fine with how the Italians are now but it would be an interesting feature.

 

[Bil Hardenberger]

36 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

I did this on Iron in each game, so visual C2 wasn't automatically and required mutual spotting (but the units were close enough for that not to be a problem if I waited a few seconds). I am also puzzled by the Italians. Maybe this is a new feature introduced for the Soviets in CMRT and never applied retroactively to the Italians.

I hadn't noticed that note in the Manual. To my knowledge, there are no Italian units currently that can be split (I know that their huge "squads" are already "split" into MG+rifle+HQ elements, but I mean there are no units that come joined up that the player can split). Am I wrong about this? I imagine this is a hint of a future feature, which Steve referred to a few years ago. I'm fine with how the Italians are now but it would be an interesting feature.

 

The more I think about the Italians and the Russians (and armies organized like the Russian (Syrians)) the more I think this is by design.. the Italians, though not an effective force by any means, were organized on the Western model (as far as I remember)... the Russians are something altogether different.  The Russians were (are) very strict when it comes to chain of command etc.  So I am not surprised that they (and their ilk) seem to be the only ones effected. 

Bil

Edited May 29, 2019 by Bil Hardenberger

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Looking at the units currently available to us in the various games I'd say that was more of a Soviet thing than a Russian thing. 

[General Liederkranz]

The Russians in CMBS are baffling me. Every time I fire up a QB to test them, I cannot get squads to draw C2 from their Company HQ directly. I've tried BTR Motor Rifle units I've tried BMP Motor Rifle Units, I've tried the Recon Platoon in an MR Bn, and I've tried a Recon Company in a Recon Bn. None of them work. BUT if I try this in the stock scenario "Going to Town," I can consistently get the rifle squads to draw command directly from the Company HQ. I think it's just an ordinary BTR Motor Rifle Company in this scenario but I am not familiar enough with the Russian TO&E to know for sure. So my preliminary results for the Russians above are wrong' there isn't a Company vs. Battalion HQ difference that I can see. It's scenario vs. QB or (more likely) one TO&E vs. another based on a difference I'm missing. Or else I'm just doing something wrong. I'd be curious what others find.

[Mudhugger]

I play CMRT exclusively, so can't speak of the other games.

In my current scenario, I am playing with a Red Army Rifle Battalion. The embedded Platoon HQ, in 1st squad, got clipped by a mortar fragment, and all three squads went dark to one another, and the Company HQ. After the squad leader in 1st Squad, took command, the C2 link to the Company HQ was reestablished with 1st squad in the normal way. Long visual distance and all, remember no radios at all. However, the other two squads in the the Platoon are having none of it. No red command link to the new leader in 1st squad and also no link to Company HQ, even if standing right beside them. Seems these two squads are now on their own.

I don't remember seeing this before, but I could easily be mistaken.

Or is it something from having those embedded Platoon HQ's?

[General Liederkranz]

That’s interesting. The squads not being able to draw C2 from the company HQ I would expect based on my tests above. The squad leader in 1st squad taking over is is weird but I have also seen it once. I thought it might be a 4.0 change. But him NOT giving C2 to the other squads is weird. When I saw it, he brought the rest of the platoon back into C2. Are the other squads within sight of the new platoon leader? How far away are they?

 

[Mudhugger]

Yeah. I can bring them all into a huddle and no links are established. I even clicked through about ten minutes waiting to see  if time was a factor.

Very strange to me as well. They evidently don't approve of the choice. lol