CMSF 2 - Co-op AAR (Bil v IanL) Using Realism Rules

[A Canadian Cat]

5 minutes ago, Bud Backer said:

So rule 2 taking base platoons could mean that one or the other side could have very different force purchase costs?

No once you have picked your base platoon you can add what every like - attach stuff or pickup another unit. It's just a stipulation that you have at least a real world unit to start with.

[IICptMillerII]

I thought this map looked vaguely familiar. Another fantastic map/scenario by @George MC! It's been quite the week for his maps 

[Bil Hardenberger]

Opening Moves - 1st through the 4th minutes

Keep the above in mind as you read through this post...  

AXIS BRAVO

Using masked terrain as much as possible the RPG team led the movement down this axis, as I felt it was highly probable I could see some armored vehicles try to advance on the Farm.  They were followed by 2nd Squad, 3rd Platoon, and behind them was one of the Recon Squads.

 

Once at the farm, their presence immediately started to pay dividends as they uncloaked at least two light armored vehicles and one infantry unit (on Objective Red).  If that's an FO or an ATGM on Objective Red I am going to want to put it out of action ASAP.. with that in mind the Recon Squad is called forward to push a little closer to get eyes and maybe weapon fire on Obj. Red.

 

With the Recon Squad a little closer it becomes clear that Ian has two ATGMs of unknown type on Objective Red.  Also note the additional two Light Armored Vehicle sound contacts in front of Obj. Red in the dead area behind the far Red Ridge.  The AT Team has taken up position in the corner of the walled courtyard, and is waiting for things to develop. 

 

I did not know which type of ATGM these were, as I'm crap at visually identifying equipment like this.. I need to get better if we keep playing with these rules that's for sure.  All I knew at the time was that these two ATGMs could devastate my movement toward the Bridge objective and I needed to do something about them.  I need to create a weapons identification guide.. that would be useful.

The second Recon Squad moved to the Farm to provide some extra firepower.

 

As the rules state, there is no direct targeting of enemy units in this game, so I gave my forward Recon Squad a target arc to cover Objective Red and let them control their fire. I don't think they did much damage to be honest, but at least Ian will know I see that ATGM and maybe he'll move it somewhere less dangerous.

 

AXIS ALPHA

On Axis Alpha one BTR is providing support in the gully while I originally placed the second BTR in a hull down position to cover the approaches to the Bridge.  The squads dismounted and started to advance down the gully toward KT2 and the Bridge.  

 

Once I spotted the ATGM on Objective Red I popped smoke and withdrew the BTR on the ridge and withdrew it into the gully.  I also changed my mind and remounted one squad in the first BTR to keep them fresh during this Movement to Contact.

 

The other two BTRs dropped off the Mortar Squad and the Platoon HQ.  In this area close to the Bridge the HQ will setup a listening post and hold there until relieved.  The Mortar meanwhile will setup in the little woods with the intent of eventually being able to place fire on Objective Red across map.  The BTRs will be moving back to Objective Blue to pick up personnel to shuffle to this area to keep building my Bridge Objective assault force.

 

Okay, now I will turn it over to Ian who can take his time as I will be on vacation next week     However I will be checking in even though I can't post any turns while I am away.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Bil Hardenberger

[George MC]

On 5/10/2019 at 10:46 PM, IICptMillerII said:

I thought this map looked vaguely familiar. Another fantastic map/scenario by @George MC! It's been quite the week for his maps 

He! So did I - thought it looked like one of mine but couldn’t figure out which one. Never thought of it being a section of one. Aye my stuff seems to be getting a fair bit of exposure. Like busses- wait fir ages then they all come at once! Great to see stuff being used and enjoyed. I’ll take that thanks

[nathangun]

On 5/7/2019 at 1:53 PM, Bil Hardenberger said:

• AF-Type 1
  1. Players can order area fire on an AS that DOES NOT have ANY positive or tentative contacts known by any unit 
  2. The PL must have LOS to the AS to direct fire from its squads and any squad to be given an area target order must be in C2 with the PL
•  

 

What is 'AS'?

[domfluff]

Action Spot.

The point being that you can only fire on a given square when either the firing unit knows there is something there, or that none of your units know something is there. If someone on your side has that information, the ones without that information can't use it.

It's a rough abstraction, but it's not much more of an abstraction than the default one.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, domfluff said:

Action Spot.

 It's officially action square but in this context spotsuffices. They are the 8m by 8m squares that make up the map. 

2 hours ago, domfluff said:

It's a rough abstraction, but it's not much more of an abstraction than the default one.

In my opinion the bigger difference is that you need to ensure your platoon leaders have LOS in order to direct the fire.

[nathangun]

I wouldn't mind giving these rules a go.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by nathangun

[Bil Hardenberger]

It is worth repeating the following Area Fire rule as it comes into play in this turn:

Quote

AREA FIRE

1. No Area Fire allowed on turn 1
2. AF-Type 1
   1. Players can order area fire on an Action Spot (AS) that DOES NOT have ANY positive or tentative contacts known by any unit 
   2. The PL must have LOS to the AS to direct fire from its squads and any squad to be given an area target order must be in C2 with the PL
3. AF-Type 2
   1. Players can order a unit to area fire on an AS that has a tentative contact that is known only to said unit
   2. The squad leader is directing fire
4. AF-Type 3
   1. Players can order a unit to area fire on an AS that a superior of the team has a positive or tentative contact in, as long as the unit is in C2 with said superior
   2. The LT is directing fire

 Axis Alpha

Enemy contacts:  the image above shows two enemy groupings.. the one on the right of four light armored vehicles, and on the left of a single light armored vehicle.  These contacts and the ATGMs on Objective Red were the catalyst for my planned moves, shown below:

In the image above, note that I am withdrawing my Company HQ BMP-2 off of Blue Ridge (KT-1), at least until I see those ATGMs withdraw from their strong Objective Red position.  Also the second BTR with one squad will also be moving out of the Blue Gully and to a position where it can provide some overwatch into the Red Gully.  My Listening Post is now manned by one team and the Command Squad from the Company HQ.  The other two BTRs are shown (left of the image), one at Objective Blue where it has loaded the AT-13 team, and the other on its way to Blue to collect another team. All of the assets gathered by these BTRs will move to the Listening Post position (shown on the right of this image).

Area Fire Type 3 

This is an example of Area Fire Type 3, note that the Platoon HQ unit has moved back to within C2 range of the Mortar team, it also has a UI contact on Objective Red, so it satisfies the rule constraints for Area Fire Type 3 (refer to the quote at the top of this post).  Over the next few turns the mortar will drop some rounds on Objective Red and hopefully force Ian to re-position those assets, if I'm lucky it might even cause some damage.  Note that on map mortars are not considered artillery so do not have to abide by the artillery rules, unless they are being used in an indirect call for fire type mission... this will be direct fire as targeted.

 

Axis Bravo

On Axis Bravo Ian area fired at my recon squad and the farm house... this fire came from the two light vehicles on the Far Red Ridge.  From the rate of fire and the size of the impacts this fire looks like it came from something like a BMP.  I suffered one casualty in the recon squad and Ian also took down the wall in front of the farm house... luckily my forward AT Team suffered no casualties and maintained their position... the recon squad does withdraw under this fire.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Bil Hardenberger

[Bil Hardenberger]

Minutes 6-8

The above image is for terrain feature reference and orientation only.

Axis Alpha

The mortar fire over the next few minutes, though I can't tell if it caused any casualties, at least did its job.. Ian packed up and moved his two ATGM teams off that high ground.  So now I feel like I can maneuver some of my assets back to KT-1 to cover his movement down the Red Gully.

 

The enemy movement is now pretty clear.. there are four light armored vehicles moving through Red Gully, and four more (as previously noted) across the road and in the woods opposite my Listening Post (LP).  Ian has dismounted several infantry teams and sent them over the bridge.. I saw one run immediately under the bridge when moving to my side.

 

Second Platoon's HQ caused at least one casualty on the bridge from its overwatch position.  Most of the enemy teams however took no damage.  I am okay with this for now, as it is still early in the action and I am still in information gathering mode.  But it'll be heating up very soon!

Edited May 22, 2019 by Bil Hardenberger

[George MC]

Enjoying this @Bil Hardenberger great stuff ta

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Yeah me too....Looks like Bil's keeping his main punch back, those BMPs & that SPAAG are a very tasty package (just don't let them fire through any wooded areas that you are occupying, ask me how I know). 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Bil Hardenberger]

29 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Yeah me too....Looks like Bil's keeping his main punch back, those BMPs & that SPAAG are a very tasty package (just don't let them fire through any wooded areas that you are occupying, ask me how I know). 

@IanL is also holding a strong force back... wonder who will blink first and throw their reserves into the fray...

[IICptMillerII]

I'm really liking the area fire rules and their implementation. I especially like how it puts more emphasis on small unit leadership. Looking forward to what comes next!

Has any thought been given to how different nations treat leader initiative? For example, a SSG in the US Army could have a greater leadership effect (himself being able to direct area fire with his squad) as opposed to the Syrians, who would require a LT to do the same. I think it could help add an additional layer of C3 realism that it looks like these rules are going for. Just a thought I had.

[domfluff]

Obviously I cant speak for Ian or Bil, but I think there's a trade-off between playability and versimilitude here - precisely where that line is will differ for each, but CM is already a long, complex game so I think it's worth being careful about increasing that too much.

[Bil Hardenberger]

22 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I'm really liking the area fire rules and their implementation. I especially like how it puts more emphasis on small unit leadership. Looking forward to what comes next!

Has any thought been given to how different nations treat leader initiative? For example, a SSG in the US Army could have a greater leadership effect (himself being able to direct area fire with his squad) as opposed to the Syrians, who would require a LT to do the same. I think it could help add an additional layer of C3 realism that it looks like these rules are going for. Just a thought I had.

No, as a test this was as sophisticated as we wanted to go... however I do like the idea of limiting control based on national doctrine.  You would have to be careful though to make sure it didn't start to bog down game-play.

I would however like to add one more layer of complexity for the next time: 

• Only a command element (Platoon Leader or higher) can designate fire controls (Cover Arc)  .. so a unit would have to be within C2 in order to assign cover arcs... or even that a Squad Leader can set only a basic cover arc and only a Platoon Leader (or higher) can assign anything more sophisticated, i.e. timed CA, armor CA
• You could get even more sophisticated and control that by doctrine (i.e. WW2 German can assign these at the squad level, however only a WW2 Soviet Platoon Leader can assign Cover Arcs)

Bil  

Edited May 23, 2019 by Bil Hardenberger

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

wonder who will blink first and throw their reserves into the fray

Or who will hold back just that little bit longer and let his opponent throw theirs into an ambush, perhaps? 

Red units definitely appear to perform better when they are static with plenty of friendly spotters dug in nearby.

PS - You do have possibly the ultimate infantry and light armoured vehicle shredder that the game has to offer, after all. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[domfluff]

19 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Red units definitely appear to perform better when they are static with plenty of friendly spotters dug in nearby.

I think that's true for everyone really, it's just that the Blue forces tend to be able to do a bit more.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'll take Blue in a meeting engagement any time! 

[domfluff]

Might take you up on that some time. With full expectation of losing, mind you.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I do need to start getting back into 2p games, so I might just accept. 

I played a lot of CM1 with buddies, but I've never played any of the newer games that way (too busy in the editor as a rule). 

[Bil Hardenberger]

24 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Might take you up on that some time. With full expectation of losing, mind you.

Make sure you get at least a 3:1 advantage in numbers... that's doctrine and is how the US Army trains at the NTC... for example an OPFOR Regiment will operate against a US Battalion, or a Battalion against a Company, or sometimes if they concentrate correctly the entire OPFOR Regiment fights a single US Company  

[domfluff]

To be fair though, that's pretty much how the points work out, at least for the regular army.

A BMP-1 company cost about as much as a Bradley platoon, and a T-55MV or T-62 company costs about as much as a platoon of Abrams.

Guards and Airborne stuff not quite as much.

[Bil Hardenberger]

On 5/20/2019 at 10:48 AM, Bil Hardenberger said:

AREA FIRE

1. No Area Fire allowed on turn 1
2. AF-Type 1
   1. Players can order area fire on an Action Spot (AS) that DOES NOT have ANY positive or tentative contacts known by any unit 
   2. The PL must have LOS to the AS to direct fire from its squads and any squad to be given an area target order must be in C2 with the PL
3. AF-Type 2
   1. Players can order a unit to area fire on an AS that has a tentative contact that is known only to said unit
   2. The squad leader is directing fire
4. AF-Type 3
   1. Players can order a unit to area fire on an AS that a superior of the team has a positive or tentative contact in, as long as the unit is in C2 with said superior
   2. The LT is directing fire

Area Fire Type 3 

This is an example of Area Fire Type 3, note that the Platoon HQ unit has moved back to within C2 range of the Mortar team, it also has a UI contact on Objective Red, so it satisfies the rule constraints for Area Fire Type 3 (refer to the quote at the top of this post).  Over the next few turns the mortar will drop some rounds on Objective Red and hopefully force Ian to re-position those assets, if I'm lucky it might even cause some damage.  Note that on map mortars are not considered artillery so do not have to abide by the artillery rules, unless they are being used in an indirect call for fire type mission... this will be direct fire as targeted.

I wanted to make a quick note about this Area Fire example... the Mortar Squad had completed setting up prior to the Platoon HQ moving back into C2:

• The Mortar HAD a UI contact on Objective Red for several turns
• It could NOT Area Fire on that contact because:
  • AF-Type 1 is used for firing into empty terrain (i.e Recon by Fire) (no enemy contacts by any friendly unit) - this obviously did not apply
  • For AF-Type 2 to go into effect, this Mortar would have had to have been the only unit on the map with the contact, but this was not the case - many friendly units had that same contact 
  • AF-Type 3 - It did not meet any of the criteria for this type of Area Fire until the Platoon Leader came back into C2 range (AF-Type 3 as shown)

I know this all might be obvious, but thought a further explanation was warranted.  @IanL and I went back and forth for a long time before we had the language down so it covered all aspects of the Area Fire rule.

Bil

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

1 hour ago, IICptMillerII said:

I'm really liking the area fire rules and their implementation. I especially like how it puts more emphasis on small unit leadership. Looking forward to what comes next!

Has any thought been given to how different nations treat leader initiative? For example, a SSG in the US Army could have a greater leadership effect (himself being able to direct area fire with his squad) as opposed to the Syrians, who would require a LT to do the same. I think it could help add an additional layer of C3 realism that it looks like these rules are going for. Just a thought I had.

No, as a test this was as sophisticated as we wanted to go... however I do like the idea of limiting control based on national doctrine.  You would have to be careful though to make sure it didn't start to bog down game-play.

I would however like to add one more layer of complexity for the next time: 

• Only a command element (Platoon Leader or higher) can designate fire controls (Cover Arc)  .. so a unit would have to be within C2 in order to assign cover arcs... or even that a Squad Leader can set only a basic cover arc and only a Platoon Leader (or higher) can assign anything more sophisticated, i.e. timed CA, armor CA, Light CA, etc.
• You could get even more sophisticated and control that by doctrine (i.e. WW2 German can assign these at the squad level, however only a WW2 Soviet Platoon Leader can assign Cover Arcs)

Bil  

Now you guys are starting to get complex. What I liked about @Bil Hardenberger's proposal and the way this works in practice is that is it simple. You don't have a lot to remember and you don't have stuff to write down. As much as some of the more complex schemes people have come up with are interesting I don't think they would be any fun to play.

PS. I am behind - sigh - hope to catch up soon