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18 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

On a more serious note...

I think that feedback is MORE wanted...MOORE needed when it comes to newbie designers...

Speaking for myself atleast...i would wanna know what the players thought was good about the scenario and witch parts could do with some more work/improvements.

Some feedback is better than others. So, its difficult to be happy with a blanket statement of "I want more". I want some thought and some tact put into any feedback. I get it *you* are hoping for good feedback - why would anyone want bad feedback right :) We have all see "that sucked" type of feedback that is neither tactful nor helpful. It happens so you have to be ready to ignore that stuff...

 

18 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

Such comments i would find very useful for my next project and inspire me to do more work...

No comments at all i would simply find 'depressing' after many, many hours of work...

Really you want there to be an intrinsic feeling of value to the creation process. If you are creating anything and you only enjoy it when you get happy feedback then you are not going to progress or enjoy doing it. When any of us are done creating a scenario you should feel a sense of accomplishment as part of that process. After that bad feedback can be ignored and good feedback is valued. If you truly feel that intrinsic success it is much easier to take a little bad tact and see the value of the critic's point. Cause a lot of good feedback still comes without any tact :D

 

18 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

A more seasoned designer have a better understanding of how the gameengine/editor works and what is required of a 'good' scenario and might not neccesarely need that many pointers...

Perhaps but everyone could use a bit of what you are asking for "I liked this", "really enjoyed this", "but when I did this the reaction seemed confused". Even seasoned designers like to hear what approach you took against the enemy and what happened. Every now and then you might give someone a cool new idea - for the next one for for an improvement.

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The reason i...and i belive many others would like to get som feedback on our scenarios is not at all to recive a huge amount of prace or admiration...

That would be nice offcourse...possitive feedback is what we hope for obviously...but if negative comments or friendly suggestions are called for they are equally welcome...

The reason for me wanting some feedback is..

To learn 😎

With what parts of this scenario have i succeded...what is good ? Was it to hard...to easy...

What parts are not quite as good...how can i improve these...

If i as the designer gets no comments what so ever i have no idea about how the community recived this 'product'...

Was it so bad that it was not even worthy of a single comment....maybe i have no tallent for this at all...maybe i shall not design any more of these as they are crap anyways...

Or is my scenario actually fairly good...many players actually enjoyed playing it and would deffinetally download any future stuff i design...

Without any kind of feedback at all i simply dont know.

As for newbie vs seasoned scenario designers...when i previously mentioned that i belive that newbie scenario designers would benefit more from reciving feedback ones they upload their scenarios compared to more experienced designers...

Part of the reason is simply to learn but also the simple fact that most times i belive a newbie designer will not get any feefback at all until...post release.

A more experienced designer is way more likely to have a number of playtesters willing to try out their scenarios during the design phase...getting plenty of feedback this way. A newbee designer seldom has this i belive...they have to do it alone...therefore the need for post release feedback might be higher...

 

Edited by RepsolCBR
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38 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

The reason i...and i belive many others would like to get som feedback on our scenarios is not at all to recive a huge amount of prace or admiration...

That would be nice offcourse...possitive feedback is what we hope for obviously...but if negative comments or friendly suggestions are called for they are equally welcome...

The reason for me wanting some feedback is..

To learn 😎

With what parts of this scenario have i succeded...what is good ? Was it to hard...to easy...

What parts are not quite as good...how can i improve these...

I totally get that. And I agree. I was just saying that given the environment - little to no feedback - we might just be out of luck.

38 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

If i as the designer gets no comments what so ever i have no idea about how the community recived this 'product'...

Was it so bad that it was not even worthy of a single comment....maybe i have no tallent for this at all...maybe i shall not design any more of these as they are crap anyways...

Or is my scenario actually fairly good...many players actually enjoyed playing it and would deffinetally download any future stuff i design...

Without any kind of feedback at all i simply dont know.

Yep. It's confusing.

38 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

As for newbie vs seasoned scenario designers...when i previously mentioned that i belive that newbie scenario designers would benefit more from reciving feedback ones they upload their scenarios compared to more experienced designers...

Part of the reason is simply to learn but also the simple fact that most times i belive a newbie designer will not get any feefback at all until...post release.

A more experienced designer is way more likely to have a number of playtesters willing to try out their scenarios during the design phase...getting plenty of feedback this way. A newbee designer seldom has this i belive...they have to do it alone...therefore the need for post release feedback might be higher...

It's an issue. Basic coaching 100 is to make sure beginners get some feedback - focusing on some encouragement and gradually getting more specific and challenging as the beginner gets more proficient. And around here - crickets. If you end up a tester and design scenarios the feedback is great. I wish I had more time to do more outside of that. My first scenario ( http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-fortress-italy/cm-fortress-italy-add-ons/pathfinders/ ) didn't garner any feedback. My next two - created for the game - got lots.

Thankfully I enjoyed creating the map and scenarios but honestly I prefer to play the game. I'm going to do more scenarios but I am certain it will remain a secondary thing for me. I'm glad there are others that spend more time designing though. I should buck up and do more to give feedback.

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Here's a thought - speed mapping?

Going back to Doom, there have been "contests" where a theme was given, and the participants have a hour (or whatever is appropriate, might be one week over a forum) to make a map.

There's no reason why something like that couldn't be done for Combat Mission.

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Lots of good points in this thread. Two more things to add:

  1. Having two briefing presentation options, one with and one without graphics, might help. The with option would be like it is now. The without option could be a layout that looks complete with only briefing text, like say, the text on top of a stock wallpaper graphic with all the other graphic frames removed. Taking away the workload of having to provide graphics (with ever-increasing expectations) might help more designers opt to go the extra mile to make their work public.
  2. A big part of the reason that there are not more public scenarios is that the workload increase from private to public scenarios is HUGE, while the payoff for making a scenario public may be minimal, or basically nothing. So, unless you really enjoy the whole process of producing a public scenario and don't require any real feedback or acknowledgment, you are likely not to opt to go public with your work once the novelty of doing it wears off. It's really a question of time investment vs. reward. Once you know your way around the Editor, you can create very enjoyable content in a very small amount of time using house rules to cover any rough edges. So, say, 30 minutes in the Editor might give you between 1 and 3 days of entertainment. And, if you go big and do like 60-120 minutes of setup, you might get weeks or even months of fun with a private monster battle.

    But, if you decide to go public with it, instead of 30-120 minutes of setup and days or weeks of fun play, you are looking at days and weeks of setup and personal testing, producing graphics, finding testers, getting feedback, tweaking, testing. In other words, you've just added a job to your life, the payoff for which might be little to no feedback and no money. So again, unless you get adequate personal satisfaction from the whole process and don't require much or any reward beyond that, it's not a hard call.

I would REALLY encourage players to learn the Editor and get into making personal scenarios, though. Once you know your way around well, you've got unlimited play value in your CM title and it's not hard to produce very enjoyable, scenario-like content. Working in the Editor can become an enjoyable hobby in itself that even rivals the fun you get from playing the game.

As for things that might facilitate more public scenarios, basically, anything that reduces the designer workload/time requirement would help. Being able to copy-paste map sections and copy-rotate buildings in the 3D view would be an epic time saver. However, that seems like a mighty amount of work on the coding side.

For now, I'd say the no-graphics briefing layout option could be a good, very low-cost way for BF to take some of the workload off both would-be and veteran designers. That could yield some fruit in the way of more public scenarios.

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I may not be all that found of the way that the briefing designing currently works in CM but i'm affraid i'm on the other side of the fence here...

I do NOT want a narrower/simpler way to design the briefings...Simpler, YES, but narrower (less options, less graphpics) most certainly NOT.

I think that a very well done briefing kind of adds to the immersion of the scenario. It would do even more so if additional functions could be made avalaiable imo.

 

Some problems i see with the current setup is first and foremost the limited resolution for the graphical sections. The maps, pictures or whatever else you would like to include here are limited to a very low resolution. It can be hard to design detailed maps and pictures within these restriction. 

Using the 'stock graphics' for the briefing pictures seems to be rather tricky to do. I have never tried it myself but i have read a number of post asking about how this is done...
The briefings are currently limited to a max of 3 pictures. This is a fairly low number.


How to change this...


First and foremeost...up the resolution. Secondly...SCRAP the entire current set-up ! and redo the way that the briefing screens are done from scratch...
What i would like to see is this...

Skip the 4 different sections that currently makes up the briefing screen...The text-section and the 3 map(pictures)-sections. The briefing screen should be made up of ONE section ! And one section only.
This ONE section should...If it is at all possible...allow for a wider variaty of file types to be used compared to the current version that only allows for a text file to be used in the text-section and picture files to be used in the picture-sections.

In this ONE section all the briefing information should be displayed on a number of pages (each using the 'full screen') to include both text and pictures. Each seperate file would represent ONE page in this new briefing screen.
These files should be doable using the most common text- and graphic editing programs.

The result could be something like this..

Maybe the first page(file) will be a 'cover picture' for the scenario, file(page) 2 and 3 will be textfiles, page 4 will be a map (or perhaps several maps), page 5 and 6 will be recon pictures
and page 7 and 8 will be additional text files only...

Something like this will give the designer full flexibility when it comes to how much work he wants to put into the creation of the scenario briefing. 
The simplest and fastest option would be to simply includy a number of text-files made with notepad (or whatever textprogram the designer desires) to make a text only briefing....Quick and simple ! 

On the other hand if the designer are willing to commit a bit more time to the briefing he could include things like picturesfiles that resembles RL briefing documents (both modern and WW2 time frames)
He could include detailed maps, various pictures like air-, satelite recon. Maybe pictures of specific persons that plays a significant part in the scenario.
For example in a shockforce 2 scenario in wich the goal is to kill/capture a terrorist leader/WIP... the briefing could include an actual picture of this guy. I think that would be rather 'cool'
Lots of stuff like this could be included in the briefing and would increase the level of immersion imo.

If the designer wanted he could also include a small encyclopedia with picture and text describing the features and capabilities of likely enemy equipment that the player may encounter during the scenario.
I think that especially someone who does not play all that much or often can have a hard time keeping track of all the different equipment in the various games. Having this rundown of the most likely opposition in any particular
scenario would be highely apprisiated i belive.

If the designers 'favorite' text and graphic editing program could be used to design these briefing pages and then upload them to the mission editor i don't think that it would neccesarely take...all that long...to design really cool briefing screens.

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I'd agree that giving the designer more flexibility in how to approach the breifing graphics would be a good thing. The current system is a bit awkward, especially with regards to fitting a tactical map in the space provided (one of the dimensions always seems to be fighting the space).

However, I'd still highly recommend adding a visually acceptable no graphics briefing option, as I genuinely think that adds an unnecessary time hurdle for designers. People who want to do graphics could still pour out their creativity, but those who want to limit their application to the scenario crafting itself would be free to do so without taking an automatic negative hit on presentation.

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There is no need for BFC to add a no graphic briefing option though. It is already optional. Just type your briefing in notepad, put it in the required folder then import it. Pretty pictures, the tactical map and the fancy objectives or reinforcement icons are just eye candy that you can do without.

The problem is that people feel they are compelled to add these things. But really you can discard this step entirely. If you know how to use gimp or photoshop and you feel like adding graphics then that's great, but it shouldn't be something that's expected or required.

 

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2 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

There is no need for BFC to add a no graphic briefing option though. It is already optional. Just type your briefing in notepad, put it in the required folder then import it. Pretty pictures, the tactical map and the fancy objectives or reinforcement icons are just eye candy that you can do without.

The problem is that people feel they are compelled to add these things. But really you can discard this step entirely. If you know how to use gimp or photoshop and you feel like adding graphics then that's great, but it shouldn't be something that's expected or required.

 

Of course, you can do that. But then you have two ugly empty frames at the top staring at the player, creating a distinct impression that something is missing. And thus, your scenario starts with an unmet expectation and the player likely feeling that the scenario designer's work is sub-par. Why force designers to eat that if they don't want to add graphics? A no-graphics option would be very simple way of eliminating the problem. All BF would have to do is extend the briefing text frame to cover the entire area of the current three frames. Everything else could stay the same.

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Personally I couldn't care less if there are two empty frames at the top of the briefing window, as long as you have a good map and an interesting tactical situation. I doubt I am the only one. Most people will be happy to be able to play a new user made scenario and won't nitpick about the lack of briefing graphics. These things don't really matter a whole lot.

Designing a scenario is hard enough as it is, creating a good looking and realistic map is very time consuming, you need to look at dozens and dozens of pictures of the area to get a feel for the terrain, spend weeks in the editor, do some research, create AI plans, test it etc. Adding an extra hurdle for yourself is a bit absurd and counter productive the way I see it.

And sure you can hope BFC does something about it, but I feel it is more important to send the message that the community as a whole shouldn't expect these things in a scenario. If this extra step is what's stopping more battles to be released because designers feel it is expected of them then that's a bit silly.

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There's no law that says 3rd party scenario briefing maps need to include briefing maps in the style of the release game. Or need to include maps at all! Just put in whatever your heart desires. A lot of old CMSF1 scenarios had lacked orders maps entirely (they have them now in CMSF2.) Let me rummage for a bit... ah, here it is, the 'tactical' orders map for my old 'Lone Star Shopping Plaza' scenario

lone star tactical map.jpg

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There are hundreds of QB maps that could easily be used as the map basis for a scenario - or then tweaked for your own scenario. You could even check out the QB AI Plans and use the QB AI Plan as the basis for your scenario AI Plan - just make sure you allocate units to AI groups.

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2 hours ago, slippy said:

I i was wondering other than the official manual are there any community resources/guides/information for those wishing to try map making, scenarios or campaigns please?

Hello...

look here...It does not get much better then this i belive..

 

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8 hours ago, MikeyD said:

There's no law that says 3rd party scenario briefing maps need to include briefing maps in the style of the release game. Or need to include maps at all! Just put in whatever your heart desires. A lot of old CMSF1 scenarios had lacked orders maps entirely (they have them now in CMSF2.) Let me rummage for a bit... ah, here it is, the 'tactical' orders map for my old 'Lone Star Shopping Plaza' scenario

lone star tactical map.jpg

I thought that was a very effective use of the space, so I copied the style for my CM:A stuff,

kwgpFY4.jpg

I've also tried to adopt @Bud Backer's comic-book style presentation for related briefing materiel:

KOFPsQh.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, RepsolCBR said:

Hello...

look here...It does not get much better then this i belive..

 

 

 

 

Thanks Repsol, unfortunately all the links in 'The Sheriff of Oosterbeek' post are dead, i get this message if i click on any of them

 

THE PAGE CANNOT BE FOUND

The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

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Look for 'Scenario Design AAR Book' in your CM:BN folder.  ;)

TBH, if you are new to the editor, you'll do well to follow @Combatintman's step by step first as it deals with the simpler CM:SF engine and thus makes a handy stepping stone to the more powerful engine of the newer games.....The new games with all the options can be a lot to take in at once.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Look for 'Scenario Design AAR Book' in your CM:BN folder.  ;)

TBH, if you are new to the editor, you'll do well to follow @Combatintman's step by step first as it deals with the simpler CM:SF engine and thus makes a handy stepping stone to the more powerful engine of the newer games.....The new games with all the options can be a lot to take in at once.

Ah i see, thanks mate most appreciated

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On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:04 PM, Macisle said:

Lots of good points in this thread. Two more things to add:

  1. Having two briefing presentation options, one with and one without graphics, might help. The with option would be like it is now. The without option could be a layout that looks complete with only briefing text, like say, the text on top of a stock wallpaper graphic with all the other graphic frames removed. Taking away the workload of having to provide graphics (with ever-increasing expectations) might help more designers opt to go the extra mile to make their work public.
  2. A big part of the reason that there are not more public scenarios is that the workload increase from private to public scenarios is HUGE, while the payoff for making a scenario public may be minimal, or basically nothing. So, unless you really enjoy the whole process of producing a public scenario and don't require any real feedback or acknowledgment, you are likely not to opt to go public with your work once the novelty of doing it wears off. It's really a question of time investment vs. reward. Once you know your way around the Editor, you can create very enjoyable content in a very small amount of time using house rules to cover any rough edges. So, say, 30 minutes in the Editor might give you between 1 and 3 days of entertainment. And, if you go big and do like 60-120 minutes of setup, you might get weeks or even months of fun with a private monster battle.

    But, if you decide to go public with it, instead of 30-120 minutes of setup and days or weeks of fun play, you are looking at days and weeks of setup and personal testing, producing graphics, finding testers, getting feedback, tweaking, testing. In other words, you've just added a job to your life, the payoff for which might be little to no feedback and no money. So again, unless you get adequate personal satisfaction from the whole process and don't require much or any reward beyond that, it's not a hard call.

I would REALLY encourage players to learn the Editor and get into making personal scenarios, though. Once you know your way around well, you've got unlimited play value in your CM title and it's not hard to produce very enjoyable, scenario-like content. Working in the Editor can become an enjoyable hobby in itself that even rivals the fun you get from playing the game.

As for things that might facilitate more public scenarios, basically, anything that reduces the designer workload/time requirement would help. Being able to copy-paste map sections and copy-rotate buildings in the 3D view would be an epic time saver. However, that seems like a mighty amount of work on the coding side.

For now, I'd say the no-graphics briefing layout option could be a good, very low-cost way for BF to take some of the workload off both would-be and veteran designers. That could yield some fruit in the way of more public scenarios.

 

WELL SAID, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH ME.

I love creating battle and scenarios, but it has become for my use only and Its all about the time vs enjoyment.

Way back when I did do some public releases. My motivation was they would be used in my tournaments and I knew I get a little feed back.

But even back in the CMX1 days, to do a good release was still way more work and testing to getting things just right. With not much in return.

So with the level of work to do a good job now being much higher. Knowing there is no return on my time spent. I have no motivation to even think of releasing some of my work.

 

Hate to say it, Sad really. But its the truth.

But anyone can learn to create all sorts of content and enjoyable engagement if they put some efforts to it, plus there is no limit to what you can do, it just takes coming up with a want and then creating it. I have had some amazing (made it myself battles) that deserve being shared with others but at this point in life it will never happen unless something major was to change in how I am living life. But back to the point, make your own, learn to open up the treasure box of what is available to you.

 

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56 minutes ago, slysniper said:

 

I have no motivation to even think of releasing some of my work.

Hate to say it, Sad really. But its the truth.

 

This is a tricky thing to solve...getting/maintaining the intrest and motivation of the comunity scenario designers...

Numorous threads and numorous suggestions has been brought forward over the past few years...Nothing has really struck home !

Not even things like THE PROVING GROUND...They are all pretty much failures.

That is a shame...How should this issiue be solved ? That is indeed a tricky question...

 

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I'm still feeling a sense of intimidation due to too high expectations. If new runners expected to be able to run in the Boston Marathon right off the bat there would be very few new runners! Just throw together a quick-and-dirty map, throw down some forces, and get the AI to move them about a little during the runtime of the scenario. If the map looks bad you can change it, if the forces seem unbalanced you can change it, if the AI movements seem nonsensical you can change it. And dream of someday running the Boston Marathon.

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