Jirash Shughur kicked my Butt

[slysniper]

Ok, I have been playing SF2 on a pretty steady outing since it has come out.

At least 25 -30 scenarios played.

Its not often that I find one that over challenges me much.

But this battle, not just a challenge, but what the heck ( I actually just stopped it early because my forces were already battered and I had not even cleared the building on the near side of the river playing as the blue forces)

Now I want to play this again, but here is the kicker. I am reviewing my tactics used and what my options might be if I do this again and I don't see where I did anything wrong or do I see another approach that makes more sense.

I was doing a good job of finding, out gunning and killing units.

It just seemed like there was too much and my losses kept adding up and with the force I had, it was not long til I had lost any bite to it to be the aggressor.

 

So wanting to hear what someone's else's successful approach was to this battle. Because at the moment I do not see me changing my  avenues of approach, my fire bases or anything I have done. 

I really do not even see another approach that makes sense other than what I did. ( plus I do not feel I had a run of bad luck. The losses I had were pretty typical for what I was doing.

 

 

[Zveroboy1]

SPOILER

 

I played this one a month ago. I probably got a bit lucky and won with the AI auto surrendering. I don't know if my input is going to be super useful because I didn't do anything too fancy and barely changed the default set up. But seeing as the thread has no reply here it is :

I only dispatched a stryker loaded with a squad toward the centre of the map right at the beginning, in order to attack alongside both roads, but the main push was from the right side. I think the tricky part is just the BMPs holed up among all the buildings in the town and they caused me some problems for sure. It is hard to get a good shot at them with the position they're in. The ones on the far side of the river got taken care of fairly easily by the 105 mm strykers on overwatch on the left side. What you must avoid as much as possible is climb up that hill with a cliff overlooking the town and stick to the low ground and the houses on the right. Creep forward slowly with the infantry and go from building to building with the strykers and the MGs suppressing the syrians while you cross the empty spaces between the houses. There is only enough room for a single squad in this approach really so I must have kept one in reserve for the final thrust. With the use of smoke, you should be able to destroy at least one of the BMPs with an AT-4. The biggest casualties I suffered were from this half squad I sent up the hill. It drew a lot of return fire but its presence helped distract the remaining BMPs. Another 105 mm stryker pushing along the left side road with the right timing can catch the remaining BMPs facing the wrong direction but don't crest the hill.

[slysniper]

Nothing in your comments sound enlightening. As you said, the hill crest is off limits, too many enemy eyes can see you there. I also lost a few men just to see if my guys could use the crest though.

the 105 stykers did fine taking out armor across the river and also silencing some of the infantry overwatch on that side of the river. But they basically ran out of rounds or died when I started to get into clearing the town.

As for the infantry on the right flank, did just like you , moving small units one at a time along the buildings on the right. Just kept getting fire from across the river that I was not able to pin or eliminate. mainly from the fact I was not able to get enough firepower in place to see their locations and return fire.

Well, I was hoping for another approach at it than just trying to do the same thing again and take advantage of knowing what to expect now.

maybe someone else out there has not seen my request here yet for this and has a different approach.

Thanks for replying (when I saw my end score I thought maybe I could have hung in and finished the battle to see what the results would be, but as I said, I felt the present approach was not good  for what the situation was, so I had enough. ) In otherward, I would never pushed a attack in real life with what I had here against the situation it was giving me. 

So still looking for a approach where I can overwhelm the enemy in sectors here.  Anyone have one out there

 

[Zveroboy1]

Yes I didn't do anything super crazy, I just thought I'd post in the thread because there had been no replies so far. A bit disheartening when you create a thread and nobody replies.

Yes I forgot to mention that I never even crossed the bridge and yes you're right these 105 mm strykers run out of ammo way too quickly. You can't afford to fire more than 15 seconds per turn. Damn you couldn't even do that in SF1 actually. It must have been even harder.

[slysniper]

The strykers limited ammo does make them a unit not good for clearing out strong points within the game. I think of them as about the same as  the AT destroyers of WW2, good for protecting against armor threats as long as no return fire is given. yes I might have let  one or 2 fire a little long on a few targets.

 

Ah, I will bump the thread on Monday and if nothing, I just do my thing.

 

I think I am going to consolidate my forces and use them all from the left flank.

the terrain from that side allows me to take on only small sectors of the front. 

What I felt I lacked the first time was infantry from that flank to take advantage of my successes on that side. 

whereas, I never felt good about any aspect of what I was having to do with the infantry from the right flank. (it is a terrible avenue of approach no matter how you look at it.)

Maybe a smoke screen that allowed the units to get to the main edge of the village where there is multiple buildings for cover would work, but I do not recall having enough smoke to do that.

 

That is what is so good about the games, you can do it more than once and evaluate methods as to what works better.

 

 

[Michael Emrys]

12 minutes ago, slysniper said:

I think I am going to consolidate my forces and use them all from the left flank.

What line of approach would you use, down the highway or over the hill?

Michael

[slysniper]

Not over the hill, that would not end well.

Last time I used the hill as a screen and cleared a bunch of units away that were across the river. So at first I was left of the hill , then I went right of the hill  along the highway to support the attack from the right flank.

That's when I managed to get into trouble.

 

I figure I will do a similar approach again, but with the infantry platoon with them on that left flank I think I can run my forces down into the town along the highway.

I see this as a better approach than what the two flank attack did. I figure I can control the amount of terrain that I have to engage enemy units from going along this path.

[MikeyD]

Assume the enemy isn't a fool and will use everything they have to their best advantage. I've got my head handed to me multiple times trying to push into town from the south road. LOS and LOF along that road is all to your disadvantage. You can't even position an artillery spotter to get LOS on the area. That's the actual enemy in this scenario. The problem of getting good LOF on the area you want to attack without exposing yourself from another direction. You can't take the objective with just infantry and you can't guarantee the safety of your vehicles when exposed. So you need to closely coordinate.

When the little voice in your head tells you 'This is probably a bad idea' its probably a bad idea. If your route of advance towards the bridge could abruptly expose you to risk of short range RPG fire assume there are RPG teams waiting. If driving out into the open could expose you to the prospect of long range fire assume there's a long range threat. I'm playing the scenario right now and just lost 2 vehicles from attacks from unexpected directions while maneuvering to fire on a target.

 

[slysniper]

10 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Assume the enemy isn't a fool and will use everything they have to their best advantage. I've got my head handed to me multiple times trying to push into town from the south road. LOS and LOF along that road is all to your disadvantage. You can't even position an artillery spotter to get LOS on the area. That's the actual enemy in this scenario. The problem of getting good LOF on the area you want to attack without exposing yourself from another direction. You can't take the objective with just infantry and you can't guarantee the safety of your vehicles when exposed. So you need to closely coordinate.

When the little voice in your head tells you 'This is probably a bad idea' its probably a bad idea. If your route of advance towards the bridge could abruptly expose you to risk of short range RPG fire assume there are RPG teams waiting. If driving out into the open could expose you to the prospect of long range fire assume there's a long range threat. I'm playing the scenario right now and just lost 2 vehicles from attacks from unexpected directions while maneuvering to fire on a target.

That pretty much sums up my feelings to the full degree when I played it here for the first time.

I mean it actually means the designer did a great job as to creating a battle that the AI defense has the upper hand. Like you said, line of site and fire is critical and getting enough firepower in place is a challenge.

Thus the reason I really wanted some input before I attempt this one again. I like a good challenge and this sure gives it. 

Just want to get input before another effort. If there is a better method I want to hear about it. ( Its just one of those situations where I don't have any answers I like. ) 

[MikeyD]

Try playing as Red and see how far the Blue AI gets in the attack. This is a fun scenario to dig out the original CMSF1 scenario of the same name to compare it against. So very very similar and yet so very very different.

[Heinrich505]

Yes, this is a really tough one.  I, too, love the challenge.  First time through I managed to rush into the town from the right flank road towards the end of the game, but then had nothing to move forward with as my guys got beaten up pretty good once there.  Most were shaken or broken.  I took a ceasefire and ended up with a draw.  

I'm replaying, like everyone else, haha.  This time I am taking a lot more time.  I've positioned two strikers along the road facing into the town.  I've been real careful to only give them target briefly orders.  The one is looking right down the throat of the road into the town, and the other is on the left hillside, about halfway up.  I've had some really good shots so far from the left one, and blew up two of the BMPs in town.  I then briefly hit some houses with the 105s, and this actually caused one BMP to back out of his hiding place on the other side of the bridge.  Then my sniper squad took it out with a Javelin.  I ran the sniper boys as a half squad way off to the left flank, looking towards the bridges.  They've tagged two BMPs with their Javelins.

I'm trying to bring in some 120mm on the suspected houses across from the buildings on the right flank.  Then I'll try to rush more troops into the town.  

I'd still say coming in from both flanks is a good play, but I'd be very curious to see if Slysniper coming in on one flank with everything works better.

And the sound of the strikers when they fire is...amazing!!!

[slysniper]

I never had cmsf1, SO THESE ARE ALL NEW TO ME. So really don't have a interest in how it played before compared to now.

As for playing it again, it likely will not be until I finish up the present one I am doing plus I always have a few h2h's going on.. So it might be late this week before I even come back and give this a second go around.

 

[absolutmauser]

I hadn't played this mission before somehow; I thought I'd played all the original CMSF1 scenarios! 

At any rate, this one is a pain because of the sight lines. I handled it as follows:

1) Since I've had bad experience with missions starting with AFVs in view of distant high ground, I dashed all the trucks on the left side of the map to the cover of that first ridge. I assume he's got some kind of ATGM on one of the far hills looking for my 105mm trucks! I left one behind the the low wall where it could see the little buildings with the enemy truck parked out from, in case he gets any reinforcements from that direction. Once the race to safety was complete, I set up the two other 105mm trucks where they had at least some LOS through the roadway to the hills behind the town on the right side of the map. 

2) I dismounted my infantry platoon and split them up into AT teams with a Javelin and the rest of the squad. I started picking my way forward with the squads and having the machine guns and Javelins on roofs. 

3) Over the next few minutes, I spotted a couple BMPs maneuvering and the 105mm trucks took them out. The Javelins got a couple more. I started feeling a bit cocky and push one of my squads across some of the open ground on the right, and an MG on the far hill opened up on them. I gave it a Javelin in the face. 

4) I decided maybe my fears about an ATGM were overblown, so I started scooting up the gun and GLMG trucks to support the infantry. Almost immediately, An AT-3 or something shot a missile that impacted on a building right by one of the gun trucks. I backed him up, but not before the AT-3 got another missile off, and this one hit ANOTHER building and lightly wounded a couple riflemen. By then, the trucks were all putting rounds on the position, but they weren't having much effect. I inched one of 105mm forward to a hull down position and started shelling them with 105mm. That did the job. 

5) I resumed the advance with the infantry and gun trucks, leaving the GLMG trucks to overwatch. My point team ran into a BMP in the town and missed it with an AT4, and it chewed them both to bits. I pushed the 105mm trucks up on the other road and got an angle on the BMP and popped it. 

6) in the next couple turns I ran into a BUNCH of Syrians in the town. I backed off a bit and dropped a heavy 120mm mortar barrage into the vicinity, and kept two of the 105mm trucks where they could hit the larger buildings without being at much risk of an RPG. Some Syrian units began to try to fall back across the bridge and the GLMG and gun trucks pasted them. 

7) As I kept pushing, I started running out of time, and then they gave up. I lost two KIA (the two unfortunate souls who ran into the teeth of an angry BMP) and one immobilized truck (got stuck running over a fence but at least was in a position to provide supporting fires). 

The biggest challenge in this mission is to not get in a hurry. You don't have a lot of time, but even by the time I was running out of minutes I had really put a hurt on the defenders. If I had pushed to actually capture the objectives before time ran out, I'm sure I would have taken a LOT more casualties. 

One thing that didn't work is I put the snipers into a couple buildings, one team with a Javelin, on the left flank. They basically saw and did nothing the whole time except draw an artillery strike from (I presume) an HQ unit that was apparently on the big hill in the back. I never saw that HQ unit until after the mission was over. 

I also think if the AI just left its BMPs alone in useful firing positions they would have done me a lot more damage. I killed most of them while they were maneuvering, and they always seemed to wander into my guns. It was the ones that seemed to stay put on the near side of the river that caused the most trouble!

Turn-based/Iron FWIW. 

[MikeyD]

I started the scenario then immediately quit, then looked at the force numbers. The Red side is    ---  (mild spoiler alert) ---  VERY heavily weighted in favor of Syrian infantry. That's an unusual surprise, not at all typical. You can't possibly root them out using your available dismounts. You need to rely heavily on your vehicle .50 cals, GMGs, 105mms to make the buildings they're holed up in uninhabitable. Its a bit vexing not having precision mortar rounds like in CMBS.

The good news is the 'victory points' are mostly concentrated in unit 'destroy' objectives. Terrain objectives are chump change. So you can win the battle by killing more of his guys than he kills of yours and disregarding the touch objectives.

[slysniper]

6 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I started the scenario then immediately quit, then looked at the force numbers. The Red side is    ---  (mild spoiler alert) ---  VERY heavily weighted in favor of Syrian infantry. That's an unusual surprise, not at all typical. You can't possibly root them out using your available dismounts. You need to rely heavily on your vehicle .50 cals, GMGs, 105mms to make the buildings they're holed up in uninhabitable. Its a bit vexing not having precision mortar rounds like in CMBS.

The good news is the 'victory points' are mostly concentrated in unit 'destroy' objectives. Terrain objectives are chump change. So you can win the battle by killing more of his guys than he kills of yours and disregarding the touch objectives.

Yes, from the sound of those winning it, I figured something was up with the scoring. 

It sounds like get enough kills and the enemy surrenders, as you said, the objective is nothing more than bait. Not even going to be a factor. This is starting to make me sad. I always hate it when a briefing is very misleading as to what it says the goals are and what the real goals are.  As for the troop numbers, that is no surprise, for some to create a good AI for (especially red) that is the only way they can achieve it. So don't mind that.

I am so use to designers that make the red fight til hardly anyone is left, so I was daunted by the task to having to cross that bridge, it was looking to be a very hard challenge. Now I am disappointed to even want to play it again. sounds boring if its going to hand me a win before needing to clear access to the bridge.

7 hours ago, absolutmauser said:

I also think if the AI just left its BMPs alone in useful firing positions they would have done me a lot more damage. I killed most of them while they were maneuvering, and they always seemed to wander into my guns. It was the ones that seemed to stay put on the near side of the river that caused the most trouble!

yes, I felt the same way about that from my playing of it. Most of the BMP kills I had were due to their movement which really seemed unnecessary on their part.

I could have used a little of the good fortune you had. I did not do so well against some of the first round shots from the enemy. they found their mark on my units.

[absolutmauser]

4 hours ago, slysniper said:

It sounds like get enough kills and the enemy surrenders, as you said, the objective is nothing more than bait. Not even going to be a factor.

Yeah, I just barely had gotten boots on the objective building on the near side of the river when they gave up. There was no way I was going to get across the bridge and secure the others in the time I had left.

[slysniper]

This scenario has the makings of being a outstanding fight, But now I am wondering if I would even rate it very high in a review.

I still am going to replay it, but not looking forward to it as I once was.

 

[absolutmauser]

1 minute ago, slysniper said:

This scenario has the makings of being a outstanding fight, But now I am wondering if I would even rate it very high in a review.

I still am going to replay it, but not looking forward to it as I once was.

 

Maybe if I could air assault to the other side of the river and take the high ground, and have a couple 155mm tubes tasked as well! X D

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Have to say the starting setup is particularly nasty in this one.....Even by my standards! 

 

---------------------------------------------     SPOILER ALERT     --------------------------------------------------

 

Shouldn't someone have warned that Lt. Colonel that there were ATGMs overlooking his line of approach?

[slysniper]

OK, I replayed it tonight and I went ahead and shifted my Stryker force on the right flank and brought it over to the left flank and moved it to the ridge line behind the road as it cuts the hill and goes down into the town.

For me, this was a much better approach. all the Stryker's could now easily engage targets and move into firing positions. they at first focused on units on the far side hill from this location. My left flank 105 Stryker's, focused on moving left of the hill and clearing targets that way.

With the complete force on this side I could put fire power on portions of the buildings as I began to move down the road into town in that cut.

The infantry was able to get into town by the Stryker's laying a smoke screen for them. In general the whole process was better and I had some flexibility to adjust units as needed as situation of enemy positions became available.

On the original right flank I only left a javelin team and one machine gun. They were there to do no more than spot units and take out targets of opportunity. The enemy left them pretty much alone, but I did manage to them around the bend as to forward progress in the battle.

 

Playing the scenario again I was surprised to find it still very challenging in that even with all my fire power now grouped together it still was very hard to dislodge the enemy.

There was many buildings I poured tons of fire into and still could not eliminate of break them to run. it was a hard fight to clear them out.

As for scoring I was pleased in that the battle did not end too early in that I did get to cross the bridge and was assaulting the objective on the far side of the river before the AI surrendered. Not perfect, but not as bad as I thought it might be by the other reports provided in this thread.

 

So I think this is one of the more challenging battles I have come across and it plays well. Its not a 10, but a good 8.5 It has a interesting force match up so I like that about it.

 

I never look at a second playthrough as a fair contest so it will always remain one of the few that I messed up on and it kicked my butt.

 

But I will post a few shots and my second attempt to show how my approach went by not following the bad approach trying to come in on the right flank.

 

[slysniper]

http://

 

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[slysniper]

So the first image shows the force as they enter into town from the left flank and my first units to enter.

the second image shows basically the situation at the games end. Structure on the near side bank are all occupied. both bridges covered. troops having crossed on the left bridge and preparing to attack the second objective.

Results image, much better than the first go around. Very light losses compared to the first approach. Not only was the infantry not forced to go down a path that was a killing zone. But with the forces used altogether, they provided the added cover that helped me not lose armored units like I did in the first battle. 

Firepower is always the key to success.

 

[MikeyD]

The 'flaw' in the scenario is not in the scenario itself but with the orders map info. They had inadvertently forgot to list the 'unit objectives' points totals which made you believe you were playing for a grand total of 70 points. I think the low points count is from the original CMSF1 scenario and didn't get updated for the revised version.

[slysniper]

The scenario still could use some tweak's, that is for sure. You are correct in that the scoring is all jacked up.

I would like to see him add reinforcements that never come so that the battle times out with no surrender possible to red, they need to fight to the last man and blue deserves to make a push as far as he can. I had 10 minutes left and I would really have liked to take that second objective.

Other than that, the only thing I still do not like is his use of a few bmp's on the far side.

There movement is nothing more than making them easy targets and not adding anything to the defense because they are going to lose the sighting battle every time with how he is moving them into the open.

[Erwin]

Have enjoyed this discussion of tactics.  Wish more threads were like this.  Thanks...