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So is the scout sniper just the new boot from STA platoon carrying the M40 or... why do snipers suck


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I'm not sure if this was done on purpose for gameplay reasons, which might be possible considering AI snipers have snipped the gunners out of my CAAT vics while moving before, but for whatever reason 'veteran' usmc scout snipers cant hit anything at range  at all, earlier I literally watched a rested sniper fire and miss 55 shots from an m40a3 at a stationary enemy 411m away... 411 METERS! recruits make shots on human sized targets at 500m using M16A4s with 4x RCOs but this Scout SNIPER cant hit a mass of 4 dudes from 400m away with a 7.62 purpose made rifle with an 8x scope? that was on specific example but the marines in semper fi syria must've all been preparing to get admin separated for unking the range 3 times in a row when suddenly they had to go to Syria because none of them can hit anything...  

  End rant: I am enjoying the game for the most part but thats just one of the many things getting under my skin about this game so far, I know it was just rereleased so its gonna have a few problems but this is ridiculous. anyone got anything similar?

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I can not comment on the observed behaviour for the particular set up you described as i have not tested it, but i think your statement can at least not be generalized to all CMSF2 sniper teams under all circumstances. I recently played a NATO module scenario multiple times for testing purposes and my veteran german sniper team equipped with a G82 .50 cal rifle took out targets at ranges up to 1000 meters with usually less than 3 shots. They were in fact the most prolific killers in that particular scenario.

Is it possible that the target was partially behind cover/concealment in the situation you described or that the target command, if you explicitly gave one, was it saying that the target was partially hull down? Do you have save game that you can upload so we can reproduce the behaviour your described?

Edited by agusto
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I think the problem inherently goes back to CMx1 days in WW2. There was a lot of arguing before steve stated they were more like designated marksmen than modern snipers.

Now that here we are in moderm times I think its an inherent game play prob

I have my best luck positionin them well and letting them self target

Also your best luck to skew it more like real modern snipers is to always go the .50 cal route. Its a bigger bullet, more damage and more effect. Its the only time Ive really consistently seen high quality Western snipers act like the stereotype

Edited by Sublime
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4 hours ago, sam262 said:

I'm not sure if this was done on purpose for gameplay reasons, which might be possible considering AI snipers have snipped the gunners out of my CAAT vics while moving before, but for whatever reason 'veteran' usmc scout snipers cant hit anything at range  at all, earlier I literally watched a rested sniper fire and miss 55 shots from an m40a3 at a stationary enemy 411m away... 411 METERS! recruits make shots on human sized targets at 500m using M16A4s with 4x RCOs but this Scout SNIPER cant hit a mass of 4 dudes from 400m away with a 7.62 purpose made rifle with an 8x scope? that was on specific example but the marines in semper fi syria must've all been preparing to get admin separated for unking the range 3 times in a row when suddenly they had to go to Syria because none of them can hit anything...  

  End rant: I am enjoying the game for the most part but thats just one of the many things getting under my skin about this game so far, I know it was just rereleased so its gonna have a few problems but this is ridiculous. anyone got anything similar?

Got a save?

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5 hours ago, sam262 said:

I am enjoying the game for the most part but thats just one of the many things getting under my skin about this game so far, I know it was just rereleased so its gonna have a few problems but this is ridiculous. anyone got anything similar?

You could probably add the dedicated MG teams to the list, too. In every CM theater, I own, (which is, sadly to admit, all of them) they've always sucked at creating mass casualties and kill records at the end of a battle or a completed campaign.

You waste a lot of time and effort lugging these heavy, crew served, weapons to a battle in progress, disembark, move to, deploy weapon, un-deploy, move to new position of main advance, deploy weapon, etc...etc... even when you've got them setup, perfectly, triangulated, overlooking a "Murder-Hole" chokepoint; they'd be the lucky one's if they had a chance to break open a box of chalk and place a 1 inside the chalk board kill column.

But, hey, that's just me. I've learned to live with it, a 1 in the kill column is better than a pre-certified un-used chalk board.

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6 hours ago, sam262 said:

I literally watched a rested sniper fire and miss 55 shots from an m40a3 at a stationary enemy 411m away... 411 METERS!

Possibly this is related to similar AI issue when (say) a tank uses up all its ammo firing at an enemy but every shot hits an intervening tree.  The AI doesn't have a routine that says, "Gee, this is a waste of ammo" and stops or moves the unit slightly to get a clear shot.  Just curious, can you see where the shots are landing?

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BFC tends to give earlier generation weapons a bit of a performance penalty. M40 sniper rifle might be less effective than Mk11, Canadian C3A1 might be less effective than a C15. I've got no data to back up that assertion but its not out of the question. A Syrian RPD lmg is definitely a worse weapon than a PKM,

If every bullet found its mark during a battle there would either be thousands dead or only a couple dozen rounds would have been expended during the fight.
Army limited M4 carbine (in CMSF2) to 3 round bursts because M16s on full auto in the hands of rattled troops are profligate wasters of ammo. A recent Marine report out of Afghanistan claimed 'typical' infantry firefight ranges are in the 80-100 meters range and rarely exceed 150m. Because beyond that you're not hitting anything. 500m is a third of a mile, farther than most sharpshooters would attempt except under ideal conditions. You can't just complain about you sharpshooter missing, you also need to note the light levels (time of day), the visibility (clear or thick haze), wind strength and direction. Was he attempting a long range shot through a crosswind? Was the target prone, or half obscured in tall grass? Was he being ordered to take a problematic shot or was he self-targeting?

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I have not done any testing on the cmsf2 game, but I have tested in the past and found that the modern snipers in the game can get kills pretty consistently up to 600 meters with most of their rifles.

I have not seen anything since playing SF2 that makes me question that they are still capable of doing the same.

I suspect there is some type of cover, even if its just a fold in the ground that has created the problem for him.

As mentioned, the game does not adjust the targeting, it will do the same over and over to no avail.

I had it happened with a tank just a few days ago. wasted a 1/2 dozen shots on the same target and there was no reason it should not be hitting the enemy unit. So I moved it just a nudge, it missed once at the new location then a killing shot.

Same goes with infantry, sometimes you just have to adjust the location of the shot , even if it looks perfect from the present location. (long before you let it shoot as long as you did)

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People seem to forget that there are  a number of modifiers available to take someone from marksman to sniper.  I have played a couple scenarios where I changed a sniper from Veteran to Elite.  Let me tell you, give me a couple of those bad boys and I can defend against a company of conscripts.

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In the USMC, the effective range of a rifle is the range at which ANY Marine can be expected to inflict a casualty on the enemy. The max effective range of the M-14 that I qualified with, was 460m (500 yds). At Parris Island, if you qualified as High Expert, you qualified for sniper school. Keep in mind that qualifying was on a range with known distances, while using a tight sling, and the TARGETS WEREN'T SHOOTING BACK!

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Well I did some testing to see if  CMSF2 is acting the same as what I tested in CMBS years ago.

Before any rant, learn to see what to expect from the game and things will work out much better for you

 

Ok, I selected all 13 Nato Sniper units and placed them in a sniper perfect situation with a target rich field of enemy units, none of which were firing back AND NO COVER

Tested range 420 meters

allowed 2 minutes of firing

used vet+1, then crack +2, then elite +2

 

In all these test the average hits were around 18 units, so that is 1.4 hits approx. within two minutes. But of course I had teams ranging from 3 kills to no kills in the test.

Only on the elite +2 test did I have one unit with 4 kills.

 

Also there was no consistency as to which sniper unit was out performing the others.

these were some of the top performer in some of the test.

German G82,

German G22

US m110

US M107

US MARINE M82A3

 

AT 600M IT WAS THE

DUTCH 338 LAPOA ,

GERMAN G82

 

AT THE 600 METER RANGE I HAD A ADVERAGE OF 7 HITS OUT OF THE 13 TEAMS IN THE 2 Minutes

so you might as well say .5 percent chance in that time frame.

 

take these things , now factor in cover and concealment and all the other things the game does and now you can see what to expect out of your Snipers.

plus keep in mind get them much closer and the enemy fires back.

 

In general, I would not let my sniper fire for more than a few minutes without changing locations and the 400 meter range is a good range to use to start getting results on easy targets.

 

(Side note, these numbers are good for the modern games, I recall the testing on the WWII games were about 150 meters shorter to get similar results. too long ago to remember for sure.)

Edited by slysniper
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5 hours ago, slysniper said:

Well I did some testing to see if  CMSF2 is acting the same as what I tested in CMBS years ago.

Before any rant, learn to see what to expect from the game and things will work out much better for you

 

Ok, I selected all 13 Nato Sniper units and placed them in a sniper perfect situation with a target rich field of enemy units, none of which were firing back AND NO COVER

Tested range 420 meters

allowed 2 minutes of firing

used vet+1, then crack +2, then elite +2

 

In all these test the average hits were around 18 units, so that is 1.4 hits approx. within two minutes. But of course I had teams ranging from 3 kills to no kills in the test.

Only on the elite +2 test did I have one unit with 4 kills.

 

Also there was no consistency as to which sniper unit was out performing the others.

these were some of the top performer in some of the test.

German G82,

German G22

US m110

US M107

US MARINE M82A3

 

AT 600M IT WAS THE

DUTCH 338 LAPOA ,

GERMAN G82

 

AT THE 600 METER RANGE I HAD A ADVERAGE OF 7 HITS OUT OF THE 13 TEAMS IN THE 2 Minutes

so you might as well say .5 percent chance in that time frame.

 

take these things , now factor in cover and concealment and all the other things the game does and now you can see what to expect out of your Snipers.

plus keep in mind get them much closer and the enemy fires back.

 

In general, I would not let my sniper fire for more than a few minutes without changing locations and the 400 meter range is a good range to use to start getting results on easy targets.

 

(Side note, these numbers are good for the modern games, I recall the testing on the WWII games were about 150 meters shorter to get similar results. too long ago to remember for sure.)

Wow, awesome research, so snipers need to get real close before they start scoring consistent hits?

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Well, engaging snipers at closer ranges also becomes tricky. If they start receiving enemy fire they also can become pretty ineffective.

I like to bring them in under 300 meters if I have a situation where my normal troops have fire superiority but are not able to get many kills. Adding a Sniper to such a group will add a lot of lethal fire, that is a situation where the sniper will excel.

In the test I did, I know that I also like Snipers on their own covering open approaches for the enemy where they can cover it at about the 400 meter range.

They can be a good screen defense in such a situation. I like to have a MG out there also if possible. The combination of sniper , MG is really good for covering open approaches.

 

in game situations have me using Snipers all the time in ways I do not think is best, but I am not afraid to see them die either, since they are just game pieces instead of real men.

So yes, Snipers at close ranges can put on a killing spree, but in general it will be very short. Normally plays out with them killing a few men before a lucky round returns and find them as a mark.

If you want a sniper with a high end tally at the end of the game, I say 400 meters is about the best range to work with them to give them such a chance. 

I have had many snipers with up to 20 kills in a game and still be alive to brag about it.

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5 hours ago, sam262 said:

Wow, awesome research, so snipers need to get real close before they start scoring consistent hits?

Use your snipers  to: 1) observe and; 2) engage high value targets. Let them do that from concealed positions which are preferably as far away as possible from any  'stuff' detrimental to their health. You want casualties to be specialists (gunners/FOs/etc.) and officers (HQs/Squad Leaders/etc.). Let them choose targets to ensure that. Quickly relocate once you notice incoming fire. There is nothing wrong with keeping them 400m away. You're looking for quality and not number...

Much better for them to suppress an ATGM team than score a couple of hits on a squad. You have other 'stuff' on the map to score high volume casualties with.

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