Javelins

[db_zero]

They are brutal against tanks, vehicles and bunkers. I also see them shooting at things like machine gun emplacements automatically.

I can't recall that in Black Sea. Not to say its never happened, I can't recall seeing it. 

From the demo I've noticed TOWS on Bradleys fire more liberally and at non armored targets. I know from discussions and seeing it in action the TOWS in Black Sea are different with top attack warheads that are not as effective vs buildings.

I'm now curious to how the HUMVEE mounted TOWS perform in SF2. There was discussions about their utility in Black Sea. I've seen the HUMVEE mounted TOWS fire in a test battle I setup in Black Sea  When I mentioned to my h2h opponent he was shocked as he never saw a HUMVEE mounted TOW shoot in Black Sea. If the logic is different for various TOWS would it be possible at some point in the future to be able to specify what variant is loaded

Edited December 10, 2018 by db_zero

[IICptMillerII]

The javelin is a game changer in modern conventional warfare. A light infantry company in strykers has enough javelin munitions to wipe out an armored battalion. It's a revolution in infantry anti-tank capability not seen since the first introduction of the ATGM in the later 60's. 

14 minutes ago, db_zero said:

I'm now curious to how the HUMVEE mounted TOWS perform in SF2. There was discussions about their utility in Black Sea. I've seen the HUMVEE mounted TOWS fire in a test battle I setup in Black Sea  When I mentioned to my h2h opponent he was shocked as he never saw a HUMVEE mounted TOW shoot in Black Sea.

The TOW-2A is a conventional warhead that is effective against tanks/buildings/fortifications. The TOW-2B in Black Sea is a top-down attack munition that is most effective against armored vehicles and certain types of fortifications, such as bunkers. What the tac ai chooses to engage with what munitions is in large part dependent on the capability of the munitions. This likely explains the difference in behavior you're seeing between CMSF2 and CMBS. 

16 minutes ago, db_zero said:

If the logic is different for various TOWS would it be possible at some point in the future to be able to specify what variant is loaded

Very unlikely. 

[db_zero]

"A light infantry company in strykers has enough javelin munitions to wipe out an armored battalion".

That is simply incomprehensible to think of. The outcome of such a seemingly small advancement in weaponry carries huge geopolitical implications. I was watching some stuff on the latest Russian tank the T-14 and they must have taken the Javelin into account when designing the T-14.

[Bartokomus]

Do you guys notice that vehicles no longer contain Javelin launchers, just the missiles?

[IICptMillerII]

5 minutes ago, Bartokomus said:

Do you guys notice that vehicles no longer contain Javelin launchers, just the missiles?

Both the stryker and Bradley have both the Launcher (CLU) and missiles:

[Bartokomus]

ahhh; but not the AAV.  I'm playing a Marines scenario and they've got the missiles, but not the launcher.

 

thanks

[sburke]

1 minute ago, Bartokomus said:

ahhh; but not the AAV.  I'm playing a Marines scenario and they've got the missiles, but not the launcher.

 

thanks

heh yeah I asked about that a while back.  Seems the AAVs carry reloads only.  Something to keep in mind playing Marines.  That is the one area they come up short.  Seems it really is ToE for them.  *scratches head*

[Bartokomus]

So at the Co. level they have a Javelin team and then every vehicle has reloads? i can see the logic to an extent i guess.

 

thanks for the follow-up.

[sburke]

I'll let a Marine speak to it, but I think it is more a reflection of the role of the AAV platoon versus the Stryker and Bradley being inherently part of those Company and platoon units.

[db_zero]

Its sounds like the Javelin is a real game changer indeed. If I were looking at it from the other side the only thing worse that a Marine with a rifle is a Marine with a Javelin and a rifle.

[IICptMillerII]

@sburke covered it, the Marines have a different doctrine for using the javelin than the Army does.

@Vet 0369 might be able to provide more insight as to why the Marines use the javelin the way they do.

[db_zero]

Its starting to sound like the ATGM was the bow and arrow and the Javelin is the longbow. If true we're at the cusp of a new age in warfare.

Don't get me started about AI, robotics, drones and microchips being taken to the next level.

 

 

[sburke]

28 minutes ago, db_zero said:

Its starting to sound like the ATGM was the bow and arrow and the Javelin is the longbow. If true we're at the cusp of a new age in warfare.

Don't get me started about AI, robotics, drones and microchips being taken to the next level.

 

 

Have you read Army of None yet?

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/Army-of-None?WT.mc_id=12_03_2018_10_EOYBooks2018ArmyofNone_BG-media_&WT.tsrc=BGmedia

[Vet 0369]

2 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

@sburke covered it, the Marines have a different doctrine for using the javelin than the Army does.

@Vet 0369 might be able to provide more insight as to why the Marines use the javelin the way they do.

Thank you for the vote of confidence Sir, but we didn't have Javalins when I was in. We were just getting the TOW, and showing the Manufacturer and the Army that we could do everything they were telling us that we couldn't. For example, they said we couldn't fire a TOW from a moving vehicle, so we mounted a TOW launcher on a jeep and hit the target while the jeep was moving. They said we couldn't  change targets in flight, or cross two TOWs in flight, so we did. Moral of the story; never tell the Marines they can't do something, they'll do it just to spite you.

Funny story about TOWs. One drill weekend in 1976 or 77, we went up to Ft. Riley, KS to live fire our 60mm mortars. We had to check fire and stand down on the range when an Army APC pulled up on the line, and the bleachers filled up with Army Officers, including a General Officer, for a demonstration. We watched great interest (none of us had ever seen a TOW) as a crew attempted to fire a TOW. WOOSH, BANG, the TOW slammed into the ground about 50 yds out. It must not have traveled far enough to arm the warhead, or it had a dummy, cause there was no explosion. The crew reloaded the launcher, and went back inside the APC. WOOSH, BANG! Same thing, same result. We were starting to chuckle at that point cause we saw the General climb down from the bleachers and enter the APC; we all know that nothing is funnier than another's discomfort, and those poor soldiers were about to get a real butt whooping from the General.After a little while, the General exits the APC, walks into the bleachers, and says "F$&king thing will work now!" Yes we were close enough to hear him. A few minutes later, WOOSH, BANG ; same spot. Our Weapons Platoon Commander, a Captain, says "F$&King thing will work now!" We were roaring, andthe General heard him, but was so embarrassed that he just left. Afterwards, our Skipper called over the Lt. commanding the crew, cause we felt sorry for him and the whooping we knew he was going to get later from his C.O. He had never seen an M2 mortar, so we let him fire a Final Protective Fire (30 rounds down the tube in 60 seconds). From the look on his face, he had just had an orgasm, and we had a friend for life, which is a good thing when you have to use someone else's facilities to train.

I have to assume that Javs are in the company or Battalion Weapons platoons because they are heavy weapons. For example, the Ma Duce .50'cal. and 81mm mortars are at Battalion level as were the Dragons that the Jav replaces. The Marines have the 5.56mm squad machine gun now, but the heavier 7.62mm gun that replaces the M-60 might be part of the Company weapons platoon as are the 60mm mortars. I haven't kept up with those changes for decades. Company or Battalion can better employ mortars, Javalins, and medium and heavy machine guns tactically than a rifle platoon can, but a platoon is still reinforced with them as the situation dictates.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Vet 0369

[sburke]

27 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

They said we couldn't  change targets in flight, or cross two TOWs in flight, so we did. 

Excuse me, Egon, you said crossing the streams was bad

Great story there and hats off to you guys for giving that Lt something good to remember the day for.

Edited December 10, 2018 by sburke

[Vet 0369]

5 hours ago, db_zero said:

"A light infantry company in strykers has enough javelin munitions to wipe out an armored battalion".

That is simply incomprehensible to think of. The outcome of such a seemingly small advancement in weaponry carries huge geopolitical implications. I was watching some stuff on the latest Russian tank the T-14 and they must have taken the Javelin into account when designing the T-14.

And give the man the gold ring! For every advance in weaponry, you'll find a corresponding advance in defense, and visa versa. That's one of the ways we basically bankrupted the Soviet Union. Reagan said we were developing a "Star Wars" defense (Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), and the Soviets went whole hog to develop a way to beat it. Only problem was that there wasn't really an SDI.

[Vet 0369]

54 minutes ago, sburke said:

Excuse me, Egon, you said crossing the streams was bad

Great story there and hats off to you guys for giving that Lt something good to remember the day for.

Well, it wasn't entirely altruistic, we had brought a lot of rounds (we got a specific number of motar rounds every month, and we didn't get much firing time so we had three bunkers full of rounds at an Air Force Base next to our reserve center), and we couldn't bring back any crates that we had opened. Also we had three tube firing an FPF with full increment charges because we didn't want to have to burn the unused increments. A mortar round is initially fired by a shotgun shell like initiator. It in turn sets off the increments. An increment is a propellant pack that burns and fires the round out of the tube. A mortar round has four fins on the bottom of it. There are two increments on each fin. Depending on the elevation of the tube, full charge will give the longest range at that elevation. As you remove increments in one or two increments from diametrically opposed fins, it reduces the range without having to change the elevation of the tube. We used a range card to determine the number increments for the desired range for a given elevation. For example, an elevation of 45 degrees with  a full increment provided the longest range. A 90 degree elevation with Zero increment gave the shortest range, and no, you can't drop a round on yourself. The winds aloft and rotation of the earth ensure that a round will not fall within 50 meters of the tube.

When you pull increments off the round, you have to dig a hole and use a match to burn them. If you fire full charge, you don't have to dig a hole. The problem we had that day as a result of firing an FPF with three tube at full charge was that the tubes were so hot that the sealant in the base cap melted and bubbled out of the tubes. My M-60 gun teams had to sleep with the traverse and elevation (T&E) bags because the bag also contained an asbestos glove for barrel changes that mortar men loved to "appropriate." In Vietnam, a lot of Marine mortar teams would just stick the ball end of the mortar into the ground and walk the rounds into the enemy. Much faster than setting up the bipod and sights, but they needed an asbestos glove to avoid burning their hand as they were holding the tube. Sure wish we could simulate THAT in CMX2!

Edited December 10, 2018 by Vet 0369

[IICptMillerII]

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Thank you for the vote of confidence Sir, but we didn't have Javalins when I was in. We were just getting the TOW, and showing the Manufacturer and the Army that we could do everything they were telling us that we couldn't. For example, they said we couldn't fire a TOW from a moving vehicle, so we mounted a TOW launcher on a jeep and hit the target while the jeep was moving. They said we couldn't  change targets in flight, or cross two TOWs in flight, so we did.

Ahh ok. Great story! It's always nice to see someone on a high horse get humbled.

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Moral of the story; never tell the Marines they can't do something, they'll do it just to spite you.

Of course this works both ways. "Now Marines, try not to break anything on this ship." -Sailor
Marines immediately begin smashing
"It was broken before, I swear gunny! Besides it's better now!" - Lance Coolie

 (all in good fun of course!)

 

[Vet 0369]

22 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Ahh ok. Great story! It's always nice to see someone on a high horse get humbled.

Of course this works both ways. "Now Marines, try not to break anything on this ship." -Sailor
Marines immediately begin smashing
"It was broken before, I swear gunny! Besides it's better now!" - Lance Coolie

 (all in good fun of course!)

 

LOL, true, but we'd always prefer to "appropriate it" than break it. You never know when you might need that anchor chain. And, we never considered it stealing. For example if we happened to get something such as C-rats through less than ordinary means, well they were going to us anyway, so we were just speeding up the distribution system by cutting out the middle man.

We used to play tricks on new men in the shop by sending them out to look for "100 yards of flight line," or "5 gallons of pneumatic fluid." No prop wash though cause most were smart enough to know we had jets. We decided to get creative, so we sent a new Marine out to find a left main landing gear for an F-4B Phantom II. AFter he didn't  return for a few hours, we started to get worried for him. Just as we were about to go looking for him, he pulls up in a jeep, with a trailer, and a left main landing gear for a Phantom. A left main is a Naval Air Rework Facility (NARF) level (Factory) only assembly, and we didn't even have a NARF on our base, we had no idea where he got it, or the jeep or the trailer. We didn't even ask. We drove the jeep out into the middle of a field, wiped down everything using methyl Ethel keytone to get rid of any finger print, and called the MPs to report a jeep and trailer in a field. That Marine became our Squadron Scrounge.

Ah, and you missed the subtleties of language. If you tell a Marine not to do something, he won't do it because he's so well trained. However, if you tell him he can't do something, he'll take that as a challenge and try to do it just to see if he can. A good Gunny would never say anything like that to us anyway, he'd know better, and a dog doesn't crap in his own den.

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Vet 0369

[IICptMillerII]

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

LOL, true, but we'd always prefer to "appropriate it" than break it. You never know when you might need that anchor chain. And, we never considered it stealing. For example if we happened to get something such as C-rats through less than ordinary means, well they were going to us anyway, so we were just speeding up the distribution system by cutting out the middle man.

We used to play tricks on new men in the shop by sending them out to look for "100 yards of flight line," or "5 gallons of pneumatic fluid." No prop wash though cause most were smart enough to know we had jets. We decided to get creative, so we sent a new Marine out to find a left main landing gear for an F-4B Phantom II. AFter he didn't  return for a few hours, we started to get worried for him. Just as we were about to go looking for him, he pulls up in a jeep, with a trailer, and a left main landing gear for a Phantom. A left main is a Naval Air Rework Facility (NARF) level (Factory) only assembly, and we didn't even have a NARF on our base, we had no idea where he got it, or the jeep or the trailer. We didn't even ask. We drove the jeep out into the middle of a field, wiped down everything using methyl Ethel keytone to get rid of any finger print, and called the MPs to report a jeep and trailer in a field. That Marine became our Squadron Scrounge.

Ah, and you missed the subtleties of language. If you tell a Marine not to do something, he won't do it because he's so well trained. However, if you tell him he can't do something, he'll take that as a challenge and try to do it just to see if he can. A good Gunny would never say anything like that to us anyway, he'd know better, and a dog doesn't crap in his own den.

 

Haha fair enough!

"Check the armor for weak spots with this hammer" or "Get me a box of grid squares" or "Go get chemlight batteries." Some things never change 

[db_zero]

11 hours ago, sburke said:

Have you read Army of None yet?

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/Army-of-None?WT.mc_id=12_03_2018_10_EOYBooks2018ArmyofNone_BG-media_&WT.tsrc=BGmedia

I use an advanced AI engine at work . What would have in the past required a team of engineers to monitor and maintain is now done by algorithms. I just fine tune the AI and monitor and analyze what’s outputted and decide if what’s outputted is valid and take appropriate action from there.

Im no expert on the inner workings of a TOW vs Javelin but I’m quite sure inside a Javelin is microprocessors, lines of code, algorithms and some sort of AI rules that get processed on the fly.

The current trade disputes you see is usually framed around tariffs and trade imbalances, but in one case is as much about the transfer of technology and knowledge.

The fight for supremacy in AI and the technology that enables it is very real.