Wehrmacht resilience vs. Dogface nervousness

[Josey Wales]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Josey is probably off working a job, earning money and taking care of RL while we are discussing and trying to figure out the important issues of the day................. maybe when he is done goofing off for the day he will stop by ......  .   

You're not wrong, work is manic at the moment!!

@IanLhas it right

The effect of suppression on morale (Combat Shock) is temporary and wears off once the suppression has lifted. The speed at which it wears off is dependent on the Experience & Leadership of the unit. 

The 'Broken' state is different from all of the other states as it cannot be arrived at by Combat Shock (suppression). A Broken unit which then suffers Combat Shock (suppression) will become either Shaken or Panicked until the suppression wears off when it will revert to Broken. 

In the video, the first example shows the conscript squad starting at 'Ok', then suffering Combat Shock from suppression and dropping down to 'Nervous'. They then take a casualty which pushes them into 'Panic' as a result of the combined effects of Combat Shock and now Combat Stress. As the Combat Shock wears off (suppression indicator empties) the squad recovers to 'Nervous' as a result of the permanent impact of Combat Stress from sustaining a casualty.

 

5 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I was not aware of @Josey Wales work in this area.  Thanks for pointing us to it @domfluff, very valuable information that I might write a blog post about, giving credit where it is due of course.  This goes to the heart of battle management and the Control portion of C2.

Love it, Bil

I'd be honoured Bil

[MOS:96B2P]

16 minutes ago, Josey Wales said:

The 'Broken' state is different from all of the other states as it cannot be arrived at by Combat Shock (suppression).

Thanks @Josey Wales  +1. 

The reason I was originally curious about this was at the end of a PBEM I had several broken fire teams that had no casualties.  However other fire teams in the same platoon had taken casualties.   

So, I think this means that for a fire team to be broken the team must have taken at least one casualty or its parent platoon must have taken at least one casualty.       

[Josey Wales]

@MOS:96B2P yes the effects of Combat Stress move through the C2 structure.

A squad may have taken no casualties, but if the other squads in the platoon have been torn to shreds then they will be suffering a permanent impact on morale irrespective of how near or far they are from the other squads geographically. 

This can cause some odd effects but in general its a good system. 

 

[Josey Wales]

On 12/6/2018 at 9:25 AM, domfluff said:

Yeah, there's a flag for "Brittle" (which is visible in the UI) - if you're broken (with no casualties) then this is switched on. Brittle troops can still return to 100% morale (they'll show "OK), but will lose morale much faster from then on, so each of the stages will fill up faster.

I am not sure that this is correct. The 'Brittle' indicator only appears when troops are in the 'Broken' morale state. The only other states that a 'Broken' unit can be in are 'Shaken' or 'Panic' (which are caused by the Broken unit being under suppression). The Brittle indicator disappears when a Broken unit is Shaken or Panicked, but returns once the unit reverts back to 'Broken'.

If I am wrong about this then it would be pretty easy to prove. Just show an image of the Brittle indicator present in any other morale state other than Broken.

If I am correct then I am not sure why there is a Brittle indicator at all.

[Michael Emrys]

22 hours ago, domfluff said:

Ok > Cautious > Nervous > Rattled > Shaken >  Panic > Broken

Thanks for this. I know I read this in one or more of the manuals, but despite searching for it in all the ones I have left (I seem to have lost some along the last few years), I hadn't been able to turn it up.

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

So, at the end of the day, is it possible to degrade a unit's morale permanently (giving it 'combat stress') by only suppression, or does it need casualties?

I'm assuming that it's going into the temporary shocked and panicked states that causes combat stress to build up. But can suppression alone cause a unit to become shocked? 

All this is not just an academic discussion. If I find out that suppression grinds down enemy morale, even in situations where I am extremely unlikely to cause any casualties, I'm going to use it much more than I do currently.

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But can suppression alone cause a unit to become shocked? 

I can at least now answer this question. Yes, a unit can get shocked and even panic only by taking incoming fire (with no casualties in that unit or in any other friendly unit).

I know this because I am right now playing a scenario where I have taken zero casualties so far, but one of my scout jeeps is taking long range MG fire that has caused no casualties but caused the jeep to first get shocked, then panic. After 5 seconds, it rallied and now shows "OK" again. Crew has +1 motivation.

I wonder if the "shocked" status depends on taking fire while in a vulnerable position? So that in cover, troops just get suppressed, but they are likely to panic if taking fire in the open?

[Josey Wales]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

So, at the end of the day, is it possible to degrade a unit's morale permanently (giving it 'combat stress') by only suppression, or does it need casualties?

No, the impact on morale from suppression is only temporary. As you have seen, you can reduce a unit from OK to Panic with suppression alone, but if they sustain no casualties, they will recover all the way back to OK. Hence the term Combat Shock, as a shock is a temporary effect that wears off. 

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I'm assuming that it's going into the temporary shocked and panicked states that causes combat stress to build up. But can suppression alone cause a unit to become shocked? 

The permanent impact on morale can only be caused by the build up of casualties either directly within the unit or by casualties sustained by units connected via C2 (eg same platoon). This is termed Combat Stress as stress insinuates an ongoing effect. 

You can cause a unit to Panic using suppression alone, but you will not cause it to become Broken. For that you will either need to kill or maim them or their buddies. 

[JoMac]

This reminds me of an old ACW Miniature Rules System called 'Stars -n- Bars' by Scotty Bowden (70's-80's)...

Units (Battalion/Regiment/Battery) had what's called UCM (Unit Combat Moral), and during Combat a Unit would take Temporary Moral Loss (Suppression during Battle, if you will), and would gain some of it back every turn by throwing dice (or completely get it back if withdrawn from front-line for an hour). However, if it took a Casualty, then it had a Permanent Moral Loss (on top of any Temporary Moral Loss) that it wont get back during the Battle.

Of course, you would then throw your Dice during the Moral Stage to determine what happens to a Unit. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by JoMc67

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Josey Wales said:

No, the impact on morale from suppression is only temporary. As you have seen, you can reduce a unit from OK to Panic with suppression alone, but if they sustain no casualties, they will recover all the way back to OK. Hence the term Combat Shock, as a shock is a temporary effect that wears off. 

The permanent impact on morale can only be caused by the build up of casualties either directly within the unit or by casualties sustained by units connected via C2 (eg same platoon). This is termed Combat Stress as stress insinuates an ongoing effect. 

You can cause a unit to Panic using suppression alone, but you will not cause it to become Broken. For that you will either need to kill or maim them or their buddies. 

This is a nice, understandable explanation which I'll add to my notes.

Only a small nit / clarification.  If the fire teams are in the same platoon they will be effected by combat stress caused by casualties.  It does not matter if the teams are in C2 or not for the purposes of receiving combat stress.  They somehow know that their "out of C2" buddy just bought the farm on the other side of the map and are stressed by this event.      

[MOS:96B2P]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

So, at the end of the day, is it possible to degrade a unit's morale permanently (giving it 'combat stress') by only suppression, or does it need casualties?

Not sure if you find it helpful but the below statement is where I took my understanding from.   

 

On 12/7/2018 at 1:36 PM, Josey Wales said:

The 'Broken' state is different from all of the other states as it cannot be arrived at by Combat Shock (suppression).

 

[Bulletpoint]

 

2 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

So, at the end of the day, is it possible to degrade a unit's morale permanently (giving it 'combat stress') by only suppression, or does it need casualties?

Not sure if you find it helpful but the below statement is where I took my understanding from.   

 

On 12/7/2018 at 8:36 PM, Josey Wales said:

The 'Broken' state is different from all of the other states as it cannot be arrived at by Combat Shock (suppression).

 

This is how I understood it all along, but somebody then claimed it was the suppression alone that caused combat stress. Or the toggling of different states. At the end of the day, the permanent moral hit is all due to casualties.

[Josey Wales]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Only a small nit / clarification.  If the fire teams are in the same platoon they will be effected by combat stress caused by casualties.  It does not matter if the teams are in C2 or not for the purposes of receiving combat stress.  They somehow know that their "out of C2" buddy just bought the farm on the other side of the map and are stressed by this event.      

Yes, a bad use of terminology on my part which I can see may muddy the water. 

What I should have said was that the permanent impact on morale can only be caused by the build up of casualties (Combat Stress) either within the unit or units closely associated via the OOB (eg same platoon). 

[Josey Wales]

4 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

This reminds me of an old ACW Miniature Rules System called 'Stars -n- Bars' by Scotty Bowden (70's-80's)...

Units (Battalion/Regiment/Battery) had what's called UCM (Unit Combat Moral), and during Combat a Unit would take Temporary Moral Loss (Suppression during Battle, if you will), and would gain some of it back every turn by throwing dice (or completely get it back if withdrawn from front-line for an hour). However, if it took a Casualty, then it had a Permanent Moral Loss (on top of any Temporary Moral Loss) that it wont get back during the Battle.

Very interesting, perhaps this is what the CM system is based on?!

[JoMac]

Yes, perhaps...Now, it's time for you to get going on the next DAR/AAR for our viewing pleasure

Joe

[JoMac]

Ahh, Nevermind...I see you gave your opponent the 'Silent Night' treatment (Armor Clash at Chaumont) a few days ago...All is forgiven :-)

Edited December 11, 2018 by JoMc67

[Swervin11b]

Is there a greater morale impact for losing commanders? 

Just my observation...a platoon lost its LT and entire HQ team in a mortar strike that also killed a few soldiers in each squad. The LMG team is the only one who’s still rattled. As a two man team, 50% of his unit got wasted. The other squads are actually back to nervous and cautious already. They haven’t been under fire since that mortar. I think their remaining leaders are +1 and +2. 

It seems like it’s a percentage overall that affects the permanent morale level 

They lost CnC altogether but the company and battalion commanders were approaching them when I saved it. Maybe that’ll do then some good. 

This last quick battle I’ve got going in a mess. These casualties (were my fault), immobilized tracks. Had to change plans a couple times.

The airstrike I’ve been saving is coming soon 

 

[MOS:96B2P]

22 minutes ago, Swervin11b said:

a platoon lost its LT and entire HQ team in a mortar strike

They lost CnC altogether but the company and battalion commanders were approaching them when I saved it. Maybe that’ll do then some good. 

A HQ higher up in the same CoC will be able to take over command of an element from lower down the chain if its immediate HQ is out of range or KIA. This can only take place at "Close Visual" or "Voice" range (or both). 

From the Engine Manual: If a squad or team is out of contact with its immediate superior (usually a platoon HQ) then its company or battalion HQ may provide voice and close visual contact, but not radio or distant-visual contact. This simulates that a higher HQ can step in and provide command-and-control in a limited radius in emergency situations.

[Josey Wales]

14 hours ago, Swervin11b said:

Is there a greater morale impact for losing commanders? 

No, the impact on morale from casualties (Combat Stress) for a platoon losing all 4 members of its HQ team is the same as if it lost 4 junior members from from one of the platoon's rifle squads.

The only difference would be is, if that HQ unit was providing a buffer against Combat Shock (the effect of suppression on the morale of a unit) immediately prior to being wiped out, then the impact would be greater for those squads that were within it's C2 and under fire as that buffer would now be gone.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Josey Wales

[MOS:96B2P]

8 minutes ago, Josey Wales said:

No, the impact on morale from casualties (Combat Stress) for a platoon losing all 4 members of its HQ team is the same as if it lost 4 junior members from from one of the platoon's rifle squads.

The only difference would be if that HQ unit was providing a buffer against Combat Shock (the effect of suppression on the morale of a unit) immediately prior to being wiped out, then the impact would be greater for those squads that were within it's C2 and under fire as that buffer would now be gone.

I was hoping you would see and answer that part of the question .  Another informative post for my notes!!   +1

Edited December 11, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[Bulletpoint]

26 minutes ago, Josey Wales said:

No, the impact on morale from casualties (Combat Stress) for a platoon losing all 4 members of its HQ team is the same as if it lost 4 junior members from from one of the platoon's rifle squads.

Oh, that's a bit disappointing to hear. I always liked to believe that taking out enemy leaders helped degrade their morale faster.

[domfluff]

Taking out the enemy leader will replace the leadership modifier with a different one though, which is generally worse. That will not degrade the morale faster, but having worse leadership will hurt recovery.

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Taking out the enemy leader will replace the leadership modifier with a different one though, which is generally worse. That will not degrade the morale faster, but having worse leadership will hurt recovery.

But unfortunately the leader's leadership modifier doesn't carry beyond his own little team..

[domfluff]

Sure, so in that case killing the radio operator will worsen C2.

There's definitely in-game effects for sniping the right people.

[Swervin11b]

I’m thinking my perceived resilience of the Germans might be somewhat of a bug. It might not be universal. I’ll give an example:

During a QB, a German AT gun withstood two 81mm medium, medium barrages, two batteries of 155mm firing a heavy, short barrage. Two buildings around him were destroyed. (Like 5 m around him). 

On top of that he was pinned (his bars maxed out) for a solid twenty minutes of game time by two M1919s firing from 250-300m away as well as two squads delivering enfilading fire. 

He’s still alive, the gun is not abandoned, and he has not broken yet. 

Possibly an isolated bug?