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Best order for building entry


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Just now, Lethaface said:

I use hunt for when I want my units to advance but stop and engage on contact. Like when I expect to come into contact any moment. The command is imo useful for many situations, infantry and vehicle wise. Sometimes I like to put a short hunt command in between move/quick commands, to make sure my units stop moving if they have a visual contact.

Yes, exactly.

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17 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

It sounds to me like common sense would dictate this structure be bypassed and left for follow on forces to deal with. Aiming to capture an occupied factory size structure, like the size of say Stalingrad Tank Factory or Chernobyl NPP, within the time span of a CM scenario would be considered ambitious by real military men, reckless by some of them even. Clearing developments of such size and density could be a major effort that spans hours, days even. 

Ok, I'm specifically referring to the way things are working in the 'Break the Bank' battle.  It's obvious that most haven't attempted it yet.  There is no way for 'follow-on forces' to access the inner buildings (and this is no reinforcements in this one either), and it would be very stupid to run AFV's down those narrow corridors.  Thus, all this firepower at your disposal is only useful down the flanks, which presents it's own difficulties obviously.  The issue in this one is if you do attempt to take the middle buildings, even with overwatch, yada, yada (I've been playing this series since 2000 😉), there does not seem to be a good way to enter occupied buildings in this one...and I HATE taking casualties! 😠   

Pausing outside the building doesn't work because the second you enter a building (after pausing), the one ACROSS THE STREET from it starts mowing you down immediately like they have x-ray vision.  In a real life situation I would assume infantry entering a building would hug the walls and duck and not run right up to the windows and expose themselves.  This is my question, how do you keep them from doing this?  I've had three full squads enter three adjacent buildings at once, take fire from smaller squads across the street, and immediately take enormous casualties and run away (not panicked though). I do not recall this situation in the original Shock Force or in Black Sea, although I do tend to avoid these urban-heavy scenarios because I know the tendencies of the TACAI in the CM games sometimes.

Someone else in another thread made a good point to not get fixated on clearing out every building, and I think that's my issue from a planning standpoint.  The flanks seem like obvious deathtraps in this one, but it's the only way to get your AFV's anywhere unless you are brave (dumb?) enough to go right up the middle.  I like c3K's suggestion too to use smoke, but you don't have a lot of arty (or ammo overall) in this either, and it needs to be reserved for the objectives.  Blast wouldn't work so well as you'll run out of charges in the first few buildings.  I;'m going to try it again until I get it with minimal casualties...

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6 hours ago, Erwin said:

When traveling fairly long distances thru woods or areas where enemy is expected it can be useful to have your split squads use a combination of QUICK and HUNT so that if one team is shot at while moving QUICK, the other team(s) using HUNT will stop and fire back immediately.  (Each team uses multiple waypoints alternating HUNT and QUICK.  EG: QUICK move for 20 meters followed by a HUNT for the minimum distance.)   Obviously one has to coordinate so that all units keep within support range of each other.

I use this method too, and always use hunt with my AFVs obviously, where it does work well.  I'm just saying that in close quarters with automatic weapons, hunt only served to chew up all my troops (even with supporting cover fire and arty to soften it up).   Quick works much better, which again, really isn't very intuitive.  They would return fire with Quick, whereas with hunt they just stopped and became panicked right away.  Are the Germans really that fragile? 😉  I'm going to do it over again a few different ways to try some other things.  

Edited by aleader
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1 hour ago, aleader said:

Ok, I'm specifically referring to the way things are working in the 'Break the Bank' battle.  It's obvious that most haven't attempted it yet.  There is no way for 'follow-on forces' to access the inner buildings (and this is no reinforcements in this one either), and it would be very stupid to run AFV's down those narrow corridors.  Thus, all this firepower at your disposal is only useful down the flanks, which presents it's own difficulties obviously.  The issue in this one is if you do attempt to take the middle buildings, even with overwatch, yada, yada (I've been playing this series since 2000 😉), there does not seem to be a good way to enter occupied buildings in this one...and I HATE taking casualties! 😠   

Ok so I played the first 15 min of the scenario as REDFOR and BLUFOR and this is what I got.

Disregard the implied plan and redeploy your force along the central avenue toward the Bank complex. Advance straight at them! Use your infantry to screen the nearby structures but do not let them stray far from your armor. You need to concentrate your force to achieve the maximum effect in firepower. Your armor, specifically the Challengers are your best card on this map and you should assert it. Use them to push back the initial defenses and then drop artillery on the back end of the Bank. You can pre plan this w/delay so it falls on the Syrians after they withdraw into the structure. Most of the city is not your objective, and you should not spend lives trying to clear it.

Do not complicate this attack by conducting wild goose chases against every strongpoint in the city. Both the AI and myself had the best results by making a strong effort up the center. I did not play far enough to clear the bank, but as REDFOR I already had a lot of Rattled troops and Knocked Out equipment by the 15min mark. British artillery was still falling, with air support on the way. Again, I did not play into the securing effort but things were not looking good

You will take casualties, your force is outnumbered and on a tight schedule. In the real world I hazard to say an attack such as this would not be attempted as long as the British had an idea of what they were up against. They would bring up more support or neutralize weaker outposts first. I will play the scenario more thoroughly another time but I have work tomorrow. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, aleader said:

use smoke, but you don't have a lot of arty

May not be relevant to this specific situation and scenario, but don't forget that your vehicles (as well as inf) can deploy smoke. 

Vehicles deploy a lot of smoke at a relatively long range.  In the game, this smoke acts as if there are no obstructions, so can be used to obscure many building interiors as well as exteriors.

Edited by Erwin
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Doing fresh AI orders sets, I've gotten into the habit of giving vehicles a small timed 'retreat' AI order that coincides with the separate infantry units moving forward. That will cause the vehicles to automatically pop smoke over the infantry's heads. It you time it properly its a sight to behold playing against the AI.

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8 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

Ok so I played the first 15 min of the scenario as REDFOR and BLUFOR and this is what I got.

Disregard the implied plan and redeploy your force along the central avenue toward the Bank complex. Advance straight at them! Use your infantry to screen the nearby structures but do not let them stray far from your armor. You need to concentrate your force to achieve the maximum effect in firepower. Your armor, specifically the Challengers are your best card on this map and you should assert it. Use them to push back the initial defenses and then drop artillery on the back end of the Bank. You can pre plan this w/delay so it falls on the Syrians after they withdraw into the structure. Most of the city is not your objective, and you should not spend lives trying to clear it.

Do not complicate this attack by conducting wild goose chases against every strongpoint in the city. Both the AI and myself had the best results by making a strong effort up the center. I did not play far enough to clear the bank, but as REDFOR I already had a lot of Rattled troops and Knocked Out equipment by the 15min mark. British artillery was still falling, with air support on the way. Again, I did not play into the securing effort but things were not looking good

You will take casualties, your force is outnumbered and on a tight schedule. In the real world I hazard to say an attack such as this would not be attempted as long as the British had an idea of what they were up against. They would bring up more support or neutralize weaker outposts first. I will play the scenario more thoroughly another time but I have work tomorrow. 

 

 

Interesting. I have played a few turns yesterday, moving up on both the left and right flank. My goal is to capture the squares on both side of the map and setup assault positions from there. The engineers have reinforced my platoons. Not sure yet where 3rd platoon is going. Going through the center seemed dangerous with all that LOS and I did came under fire already
I too have concentrated my forces, although split in 2 groups. I intend to keep the platoons grouped tight in adjacent buildings with vehicles very close, so if I come into contact I can return fire from multiple units. At least that's the idea. I did came into contact on the right flank. A building with 2 quads of reserve or regular infantry, they were fired upon by 2 of my squads and they ate 1 AT-4 (fired by AI). The next turn I used a warrior to shoot and scoot it with MG fire. The two squads both took some casualties and now seem willing to surrender.

So far so good.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Erwin said:

May not be relevant to this specific situation and scenario, but don't forget that your vehicles (as well as inf) can deploy smoke. 

Vehicles deploy a lot of smoke at a relatively long range.  In the game, this smoke acts as if there are no obstructions, so can be used to obscure many building interiors as well as exteriors.

Yah, sorry, that's actually what I meant by smoke for this one  It's how I was able to get around the one corner (after losing 3 warriors due to my impatience (incompetence?) ;).  Not sure if the arty has smoke shells, but I wouldn't waste what you have for that.

Edited by aleader
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17 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

Ok so I played the first 15 min of the scenario as REDFOR and BLUFOR and this is what I got.

Disregard the implied plan and redeploy your force along the central avenue toward the Bank complex. Advance straight at them! Use your infantry to screen the nearby structures but do not let them stray far from your armor. You need to concentrate your force to achieve the maximum effect in firepower. Your armor, specifically the Challengers are your best card on this map and you should assert it. Use them to push back the initial defenses and then drop artillery on the back end of the Bank. You can pre plan this w/delay so it falls on the Syrians after they withdraw into the structure. Most of the city is not your objective, and you should not spend lives trying to clear it.

Do not complicate this attack by conducting wild goose chases against every strongpoint in the city. Both the AI and myself had the best results by making a strong effort up the center. I did not play far enough to clear the bank, but as REDFOR I already had a lot of Rattled troops and Knocked Out equipment by the 15min mark. British artillery was still falling, with air support on the way. Again, I did not play into the securing effort but things were not looking good

You will take casualties, your force is outnumbered and on a tight schedule. In the real world I hazard to say an attack such as this would not be attempted as long as the British had an idea of what they were up against. They would bring up more support or neutralize weaker outposts first. I will play the scenario more thoroughly another time but I have work tomorrow. 

 

 

This is a bit surprising that that plan would work, but I will give it a try for sure.  Definitely the easiest to coordinate.

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22 minutes ago, aleader said:

Yah, sorry, that's actually what I meant by smoke for this one  It's how I was able to get around the one corner (after losing 3 warriors due to my impatience (incompetence?) ;).  Not sure if the arty has smoke shells, but I wouldn't waste what you have for that.

The artillery and mortars do have some smoke (WP) rounds. 

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2 hours ago, aleader said:

Yes, you're right, I was just in there checking it and saw that.  I will play it tonight when back from work.

Just realized (again) the infantry platoon leaders have 51mm with smoke rounds and the warriors do have some extra rounds stored. I already loaded some lol. The chally2s also have smoke shells.
So far making progress on both flanks, I've reached the square on the middle while fighting for control over buildings near the square on the right. Taken one casualty so far. 

Edited by Lethaface
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Yah, moving in force without splitting my squads seems to be the best way to advance through the buildings, so long as you don't get hit with RPGs.  I'm heading straight up the middle as per the plan, and it seems to be working as the Challengers are spotting the AT well before my infantry do, which I didn't expect.  The AI is also missing a lot with their shots ;)

Edited by aleader
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22 hours ago, aleader said:

Yah, moving in force without splitting my squads seems to be the best way to advance through the buildings, so long as you don't get hit with RPGs.  I'm heading straight up the middle as per the plan, and it seems to be working as the Challengers are spotting the AT well before my infantry do, which I didn't expect.  The AI is also missing a lot with their shots ;)

Luck is always necessary 😉

I made good progress on the flanks too. About an hour left and almost have eyes on buildings next to the objectives. I did came into a lot more contacts, but so far I was lucky too. An RPG just missed a warrior which proceeded to smoke the RPG team with 30mm, but I did take another casualty and some light wounds.

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There's an interesting little line I just read from General Harmon in his 'lessons learned' report on 1st Armored in the Tunisia campaign. He said:

Quote

To take a position hit it with everything you have. If you think you can take it with a tooth pick, use a baseball bat, then you will be sure.

I seems players (myself included) often try to figure out how to take an objective with the minimal necessary force. We don't often consider maximum necessary force. If demo charging a building wall would help in you assault maybe demo charging all four walls would work better!

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11 hours ago, MikeyD said:

There's an interesting little line I just read from General Harmon in his 'lessons learned' report on 1st Armored in the Tunisia campaign. He said:

I seems players (myself included) often try to figure out how to take an objective with the minimal necessary force. We don't often consider maximum necessary force. If demo charging a building wall would help in you assault maybe demo charging all four walls would work better!

Problem is that if you apply maximum force each time you will run out of ammo half way through the misssion. On top of that to apply that force you have to first find your opponent and that is the point where the majority of the losses will occur.

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One of the interesting aspects of force structure (as reflected in the TO&E), is the ammo allocation.

The Abrams has ~12,000 rounds of machinegun ammo. That's a LOT of suppression and some killing. A Target Brief makes the main gun fire. Not too many rounds with high explosive available. However, a Target Light would just fire the machinegun. (I'd keep the TC buttoned in any urban setting where the flanks and nearby high-rises are not secured.) The coax machinegun will suppress friendlies. So, Target Light, Pause for a predetermined time, move (reverse or slow) a slight amount and add a Face command at that waypoint. That will produce suppressive machinegun fire which will lift after the tank gets to the new waypoint.

Maximum force may not necessarily mean use maximum explosive every time, but could mean to leverage every unit to the maximum amount for each successive objective.

The UK gives the Challenger a lot of coax ammo. (I forget how much, offhand.) Additionally, they've made that coax a chain-gun. (Meaning, the loading system is externally powered, not utilizing the power of the cartridge. This makes it extremely reliable. Misfires are simply cycled right out.) Having an ultra-reliable, well-supplied coax probably means it is meant to be used. A lot.

Edited by c3k
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