Haiduk Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Lucky for the crew that your provocation didn't earn that little boat a Bal (they wouldn't waste a Bastion on such a puny target), but there's still plenty of time I suppose. What provocation? Who recognized that Crimean waters belong to Russia? We sailed in our waters. Prepare for more sanctions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 ROFL.....So what you're saying is the Ukraine launched this provocation with the specific intent to manipulate the west into punishing Russia for it?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Haiduk you always get the tastiest information. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: ROFL.....So what you're saying is the Ukraine launched this provocation with the specific intent to manipulate the west into punishing Russia for it?! This is obvious and clear. Boats could be moved by land. But looks likle our politics will get devastating effect from this "game" from citizens. This operation possibly can inflict more sanctions (but I think all will limit by "deep concerning"), but there is inner aspect - capturing of boats (especially if became knowingly HQ prohibited to open return fire) this is deadly hit on Poroshenko's rating before elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 So, Ukrainian presidential elections have started! We started to forget about Ukraine, time to remind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 This has now been reported on BBC. Of course Russia can do no wrong... *ossers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Oh, Ukrainian presidential elections have stopped. They introduce martial law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 That seems to be the root of it, a provocation/election stunt has blown up in Ukraine's face, again.....Time to start burning things, again, I guess. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46340283 He said he would ask parliament on Monday to introduce martial law but stressed that this did not mean a "declaration of war". "Ukraine does not plan to fight anyone," he said. I'm bloody sure they don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) I leave politic aside, though now almost all in Ukraine believe this was dirty trick to canceling or moving term of elections and fixing the power of current oligarchic clans both "pro-Europeans" and "pro-Russians", which after 2014 just agreed between each other. But more about details of evening incident. This is recorded radio chat betrween our gunboat(s?) and Russian ships: https://gordonua.com/news/crimea/vklyuchit-svet-na-palube-vyyti-s-podnyatymi-rukami-opublikovany-zapisi-peregovorov-ukrainskih-voennyh-i-rossiyskih-pogranichnikov-v-chernom-more-533672.html I have no time now to translate all, if somebody interest, say me and I will write full translation of dialogs. In short, Russians warned they will open fire, captain of our gunboat says that they proceed in Kerchian strait to the Black sea, according to Agreement about general use of the strait and Azov sea, gunboat takes fire, captain say they left 12-mile zone, do not have agressive intentions, do not open fire, do not rotate guns, captain call for help and pointed coordinates of atatck - 44 51' N 36 23'04''E. On the map this point is laying beyond hipotetical "12-mile zone of Russian waters" (as they considering) - in 23 km from the coast, so Russians attacked our forces in neutral waters. Further, captain says they have injured and they need help, Russians order to stop engine, turn on the light on the deck and go out with raised hands. Last information - we have 6 wounded anomg them 2 heavy. Edited November 26, 2018 by Haiduk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46340283 "Under a 2003 treaty between the governments in Moscow and Kiev, the Kerch Strait and the Sea of Azov are shared territorial waters." Obviously the Russians are not honouring this, and for the apologists who think Russia has done no wrong ROFL at your excuses!!! Pathetic. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Holien said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46340283 "Under a 2003 treaty between the governments in Moscow and Kiev, the Kerch Strait and the Sea of Azov are shared territorial waters." Obviously the Russians are not honouring this, and for the apologists who think Russia has done no wrong ROFL at your excuses!!! Pathetic. Do not mislead people Russia does honor this. According to the marine traffic regulation put in place long before 2014 and that exists regardless of the territirial dispute Kerch marine port is responsible for the traffic in Kerch straight. The procedure is if anyone wants to pass they request in advance and (pay for) civilian pilot services from Kerch port. September, 23rd, 2018 two Ukrainian military ships - Donbass and Korets - sucessfully and uneventfully passed to Mariupol honoring this procedure. But Ukrainian Navy took a lot of heat in Ukrainian nationalistic press for using Russian pilots and looks like "uneventful" was not what Ukrainian side expected from the operation in general. So this time Ukrainian Navy decided to break the procedure. But you do have a previous instance when Ukrainian Navy has no problems the straight straight should they follow the procedure. Surely the whole operation has nothing to do with "sanctions" against Russia and has everything to do with Presidential elections. Poroshenko now lags behind Yulia Timoshenko in polls by a wide margine of 1.5-2.0 times.And it's remarkable how Poroshenko's request to impose State of War was phrased. He said he wants a State of War yet he does not intend to use it for any war-related preparations. If it has nothing to do with war-related matters then why does he need this first? State of War or no State of War r it will hardly affect foreign powers decisions on new sactions if any. The answer is State of War gives him a) an option to suspend elections indefinitely, b) ability to impose censorship in media. His Security Council staff specifically mentioned they'd rather not use State of War as a pretext for censorship yet they expect a "prudent position" from media. And as you may deduce from Haiduk's posts Ukrainian media is very critical of Poroshenko as of now - they report massive graft etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Hope the injured get treated, the captured personnel extradited and this will all blow over. Way too many clowns, these days, playing with fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobo Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Do the Ukr gunboats have guns? With the tensions slowly escalating over the last few months you would think that the UKR would have to have known that RUS would do something like this eventually. Either plan to defend yourself or do not make the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 2 hours ago, hobo said: Do the Ukr gunboats have guns? Yes. But they didn't open fire in return. There is no information this was order from Command or decisions of boat commanders, because they were pursuited by 10 ships and boats of Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, IMHO said: sucessfully and uneventfully passed to Mariupol Heh... Here your "uneventful" way to Mariupol. Average intelligence ship of Black Sea fleet dangerously maneuvered near "Donbas" Russian Su-27 dangerously intercepted Ukrainian An-26, which maintained aerial support of our vessels Edited November 26, 2018 by Haiduk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Captured Ukrainian boats in Kerch Russian Coast Guard ship "Izumrud" after collision with own Coast Guard ship "Don", which rammed "Yany-Kapu" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Well, this is offtop, but Ukrainian Parliament voted for martial law on 30 days in 10 regions, which have a border with Russia and with unrecognized Transnistria, where Russian garrison dislocated. Also voted the law about signing of President elections on 31 March 2019 - this is for calming of society. Rights and freedoms of citizens in regions, where martial law provided will not be limited, excepting the case of direct Russian invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 Haiduk, It isn't every day we get a chance for such a close look at the sorts of incidents which has triggered wars in the past. Not good! Regards, John Kettler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 13 hours ago, hobo said: Either plan to defend yourself or do not make the move. Gunboat commander (Roman Mokryak) planned to use "wolfpack" tactics. He said that "Soviet giants can't track many targets" and 1 of "wolfpack" gunboats has a chance to break through and damage a big ship. Some time ago Ukrainian TV made video about that gunboats. Cynic admirals (or special services?) used him... By the way, on the gunboat was SBU agent. Politruk? :) FSB claims that gunboats entered Russian waters that were Russian before 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, hobo said: With the tensions slowly escalating over the last few months you would think that the UKR would have to have known that RUS would do something like this eventually. Either plan to defend yourself or do not make the move. That's the whole point, this was never about Ukrainian ships negotiating the Kerch Strait, it was about creating a(nother) diplomatic incident with Russia. On 11/26/2018 at 8:30 AM, Holien said: Obviously the Russians are not honouring this, and for the apologists who think Russia has done no wrong ROFL at your excuses!!! Pathetic. Actually, the Russians are honouring the agreement. Poroshenko/Ukraine wanted an incident, so an incident we got. 3 hours ago, DMS said: Gunboat commander (Roman Mokryak) planned to use "wolfpack" tactics. He said that "Soviet giants can't track many targets" and 1 of "wolfpack" gunboats has a chance to break through and damage a big ship. Some time ago Ukrainian TV made video about that gunboats. Cynic admirals (or special services?) used him... By the way, on the gunboat was SBU agent. Politruk? :) Is he aware that there's a BAL-E coastal defence array in the Crimea? If he's not, he's shockingly misinformed, if he is, he has a very low regard for the well-being of the men under his command. PS - It was my understanding that Russia detained two SBU agents? Edited November 27, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, hobo said: With the tensions slowly escalating over the last few months you would think that the UKR would have to have known that RUS would do something like this eventually. Either plan to defend yourself or do not make the move. Luckily they had no plans to commit suicide so it didn't end in loss of life. They are overmatched like 10 to 1 in those waters and that's not counting Russian air support. The whole affair had no chance to succeed for Ukrainian side right from the start. It was planned as a pure PR stunt and the bloodier one the better. PS The rumour is though unconfirmed yet is that one of the sailors was wounded not through ship-to-ship fire but for disobeying the order to open fire on the Russian ships by Ukrainian Security Service officers present onboard. Why did they need Security Service officers? Edited November 27, 2018 by IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 27 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: PS - It was my understanding that Russia detained two SBU agents? Yes, they did. At first the Commander of Ukrainian Navy denied this, he said "They (POW sailors? Russian side?) can say we came in from skies in space ships" but in few hours the head of SBU did confirm the presence of two officers. Seems like SBU has more information about this operation than the Navy Commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, IMHO said: Seems like SBU has more information about this operation than the Navy Commander. Bingo! You win a prize! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobo Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Sorry guys, I dont buy it. 6 hours ago, DMS said: Gunboat commander (Roman Mokryak) planned to use "wolfpack" tactics. He said that "Soviet giants can't track many targets" and 1 of "wolfpack" gunboats has a chance to break through and damage a big ship. Some time ago Ukrainian TV made video about that gunboats. Cynic admirals (or special services?) used him... By the way, on the gunboat was SBU agent. Politruk? :) FSB claims that gunboats entered Russian waters that were Russian before 2014. Wolfpack tactics with 2 boats and a tug? LOL. Yeah, right. Also, curious how you know the names of those on the UKR ships. 3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: That's the whole point, this was never about Ukrainian ships negotiating the Kerch Strait, it was about creating a(nother) diplomatic incident with Russia. Actually, the Russians are honouring the agreement. Poroshenko/Ukraine wanted an incident, so an incident we got. I have a hard time believing he would give away two of his 6 gunboats to create such an incident. There has to be far cheaper ways to do this such as sending out just the tug and ramming the first Russia ship that tries to interfere with passage. I will stick with my original analysis,UKR was not prepared for the RUS move which was obviously going to happen sooner or later and as such was stupid for putting its sailors in the position of having to defend themselves without the means, a plan, or backup. Those are petty cool little ships when fully kitted out and with properly planned backup they could have created quite the problem for Russia. Of course that probably would have created a hot war which is what Russia wants and in the end would not have turned out well for UKR. Russia is clearly spoiling for a fight so it can expand on its Crimea seizure and is slowly constricting UKR until it has to give up or fight. UKR is in a bad spot for the most part due to the west screwing them on the nuke deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, hobo said: Wolfpack tactics with 2 boats and a tug? LOL. Yeah, right. Also, curious how you know the names of those on the UKR ships. Well, when I heard that I wanted to laugh, yes. That guy is 31 years old... Too old for naive idealist. May be it was just a cool story for journalists. That two ship commanders are local celebrities, they came and song Ukranian hymn during retaking Crimea by Russia in 2014. (Or "annexation", if you want) Ukraine have few such gunboats, commanders are known. 2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: It was my understanding that Russia detained two SBU agents? Yes, SBU admitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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