battle for normandy Aren't these guys soldiers? Why do they always disobey orders to run away?

[Mousie]

I'm playing the first campaign, and over a dozen times, I've had people run away the moment fire starts to be exchanged. Why is this?

[Michael Emrys]

Troops with a low experience level (e.g. conscripts) and/or low morale will often seek to escape after taking fire. Troops with brittle morale (see manual) will also do that.

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

They are probably running away because they are getting shot at on a point on the map where there is no cover, and they've got no supporting fire from their mates.

[Mousie]

4 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Troops with a low experience level (e.g. conscripts) and/or low morale will often seek to escape after taking fire. Troops with brittle morale (see manual) will also do that.

Michael

Is there a way I can help them gradually gain experience?

[mjkerner]

No, experience levels are set by the scenario designer.  You can go into the editor to change that before you play, but experience and other “soft factors” only really degrade during a scenario, never the other way around. Some units may gain during a campaign, but that would be up to the designer as each scenario is made. 

Also, be aware there is also a bug that is being fixed (were waiting for the patch) that causes troops under heavy fire to bug out of otherwise “safe” locations, like in a trench or building and into the open.

[Mord]

Ok. I have read enough of your posts now, that I have to say this so that you will understand the concepts in CM. Firstly, YOU have to WIPE your brain clean of all the RTS nonsense. Take it out of your skull, squirt some Windex on it and give it a nice scrubbing. Now, put it it back in and away we go.

CM isn't gonna give you power ups,  weapons upgrades or healing/resurrection (they have their place in other game but not here). You MUST forget all that stuff if you want to learn. You have to approach it as if you are a real commander, on a real battlefield, with real men, using real weapons for the time period you are playing. It's more of a simulation than a game where exploits replace actual tactics. Battles can take place anywhere from thirty minutes to four hours, no tank is gonna get upgraded armor, no soldier who just had his leg blown in half is gonna get a magic bandage, or a green squad that just killed three Germans is gonna advance in experience, within those time periods. On the contrary, it would take a few days to up armor a tank, the wounded soldier would be shipped home, and the squad would slog for weeks before they learned everything they needed to survive. Think of it this way, if it doesn't happen in the real world, it doesn't happen in CM.

Once you rid your mind of the gaminess of other games you'll be better suited to absorb the nuances of Combat Mission. It's a whole different experience and very rewarding. Have fun with it. Most importantly read the manual! There is a wealth of info there. But don't hesitate to ask more question on what you don't understand. It's nice to have new blood playing the game.

 

Mord.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Mord

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Mord said:

You have to approach it as if you are a real commander, on a real battlefield, with real men, using real weapons for the time period you are playing.

It's more of a simulation than a game   

@Mousie THIS!!  What Mord said.  Combat Missions is closer to a tactical military simulation than a game.   In fact the New Zealand Defense force uses Combat Mission Black Sea (with some TOE modifications I think) as a training aid.  See below link.  Also, some military (US?) used Combat Mission Shock Force several years ago.   

 

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[Erwin]

14 hours ago, Mousie said:

I'm playing the first campaign, and over a dozen times, I've had people run away the moment fire starts to be exchanged. Why is this?

Because they (the AI) are smart (acting as in RL).  As others have said it helps one become a good CM player if you can project yourself into the situation (role-playing) and ask oneself "what would I do in this situation if my own life was on the line?".  

There have been lots of v. good suggestions in the various threads that you started.

One item that has not been mentioned that is often very hard to learn is the importance of running away from a bad situation.  Eg: Either an attack that is going "pear-shaped" (ie badly) or as a defender who is in danger of being overwhelmed.  One needs to be comfortable with stopping and withdrawing an engagement that one is losing, regrouping, and redoing an attack - possibly at another point on the map.  ie;  Do NOT reinforce failure.  DO reinforce success.

This is hard to learn cos we players tend to think of (and treat) our pixeltruppen as expendable automatons with Hitlerian "stand and die" orders.  One has to have compassion for your electronic warriors as if they are your best buddies, your family, every casualty should hurt...  That conceptual way of thinking will help a new player who is not as familiar with simulations (as opposed to FPS games) handle his units sensibly and issue good orders.

The other issue is to be aware that the CM series of games can take many months to master.  Some of us have been playing iterations for almost 20 years and we STILL learn new things!

Edited September 29, 2018 by Erwin

[MikeyD]

There's a famous quote from Patton from a 1958 book written by Lt. General James M. Gavin, recycled for the movie:

Quote

George Patton’s last words to us before we left Africa came home with meaning: “No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by MikeyD

[DerKommissar]

Self-preservation is a powerful instinct and is often ignored by games and movies.

In most games, every soldier is Rambo. In real life, guns are loud, dangerous and very scary.

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, DerKommissar said:

In most games, every soldier is Rambo.

Which is what many players have come to take as gospel. Witness the many howls of dismay that greeted the BFC move to increase self-preservation in the last version of the game. Granted it still needs some fine tuning, soldiers intent on not getting shot should not leave good cover to run out into the open as often as has been reported in these pages, for instance. But neither should they always hang on to a position to the last man.

Michael

[Erwin]

Agreed.  Am so used to handling my units in a cautious and self-preserving manner that I was not even aware that the pixeltruppen were more inclined to run away until the complaining threads started.  To me it all looked quite realistic that they would try and save themselves.  Yes, they shouldn't leave good cover and get massacred.  But, one learns to adapt and I haven't found it to be a problem re winning scenarios (at least not vs the AI.)  

[A Canadian Cat]

9 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

But neither should they always hang on to a position to the last man.

What!? They bloody well will if I tell them to. Says @c3k at least. Not me.

[rocketman]

2 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

Self-preservation is a powerful instinct and is often ignored by games and movies.

In most games, every soldier is Rambo. In real life, guns are loud, dangerous and very scary.

True. One thing to keep in mind is that we as players have knowledge about everything that goes on on the battlefield, but the individual pixeldude doesn't. So we might think they are stupid for running out of a building while under fire (leaving cover) and into a back street where a waiting enemy tank mowes them down. They did something under duress to try to save their hides but didn't know about the tank.

I find the self preservation aspect to be key to realism in the game, but it can be frustrating at times. Though, if it was too real we might have battles where a huge force all of a sudden surrenders, and that won't make for a fun game. So a balance is definitely needed.

[ncc1701e]

20 hours ago, MikeyD said:

There's a famous quote from Patton from a 1958 book written by Lt. General James M. Gavin, recycled for the movie:

 

This quote is indeed excellent. Like the movie too.

Edited October 9, 2018 by ncc1701e

[SimpleSimon]

Erwin and others are right that, if anything, the games AI makes the soldiers seem too fanatically willing to fight to the end. We should be seeing way more POW and MIA counts on those after action screens than what were getting. 

On 9/28/2018 at 8:58 PM, Mousie said:

I'm playing the first campaign, and over a dozen times, I've had people run away the moment fire starts to be exchanged. Why is this?

Because they don’t want to die. It’s up to you to ensure that when your men go up against opposition it’s a game already rigged for them to win. When you build a scenario for a given unit to accomplish its task within you do so in a way that failure is either extremely unlikely or impossible. Don’t ever push your men into fair fights, fair fights are for losers. 

[MikeyD]

There was a post-WWII AAR report (that many posters here have strongly questioned the veracity of) that said a surprising large percentage of US infantry never fired their rifles in combat. Ostensibly afraid that they'd attract unwanted attention from the enemy in doing so (in the game this might be the infantry 'cower'). After WWII Army training placed strong emphasis on getting the soldier to shoot his weapon as an automatic response, because a thinking response was often "Don't pull the trigger and get yourself noticed". It was mostly the green replacement troops and '90 day wonder' lieutenants brought into a veteran unit that ascribed to the 'John Wayne' style of fighting, and they usually got themselves killed off rather quickly.

Edited October 10, 2018 by MikeyD

[Badger73]

"Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command" by S.L.A. "Slam" Marshall

[LongLeftFlank]

On 9/29/2018 at 9:21 PM, Mord said:

Ok. I have read enough of your posts now, that I have to say this so that you will understand the concepts in CM. Firstly, YOU have to WIPE your brain clean of all the RTS nonsense. Take it out of your skull, squirt some Windex on it and give it a nice scrubbing. Now, put it it back in and away we go.

CM isn't gonna give you power ups,  weapons upgrades or healing/resurrection (they have their place in other game but not here). You MUST forget all that stuff if you want to learn. You have to approach it as if you are a real commander, on a real battlefield, with real men, using real weapons for the time period you are playing. It's more of a simulation than a game where exploits replace actual tactics. Battles can take place anywhere from thirty minutes to four hours, no tank is gonna get upgraded armor, no soldier who just had his leg blown in half is gonna get a magic bandage, or a green squad that just killed three Germans is gonna advance in experience, within those time periods. On the contrary, it would take a few days to up armor a tank, the wounded soldier would be shipped home, and the squad would slog for weeks before they learned everything they needed to survive. Think of it this way, if it doesn't happen in the real world, it doesn't happen in CM.

Once you rid your mind of the gaminess of other games you'll be better suited to absorb the nuances of Combat Mission. It's a whole different experience and very rewarding. Have fun with it. Most importantly read the manual! There is a wealth of info there. But don't hesitate to ask more question on what you don't understand. It's nice to have new blood playing the game.

 

Mord.

The word of the Mord! 

RESPONSE:  Thanks be to Bunker

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Thanks be to Bunker

Archie???

Michael

[Doc844]

All very good advice and suggestions above, BUT and its a big BUT for me as you can probably tell, the V 4 self preservation changes went to far and as has been admitted, has made morale wonky, ie troops fleeing from incoming whilst in good cover, trenches, buildings etc.  They basically get up and run around in the open and then DIE, needlessly i might add.  Yes soldiers do break and run thats a fact, but generally not in the way the game depicts it at the moment, for me it has broken it beyond playability, i have had RT, BN, and BS sitting on my PC for almost a year doing nothing because i personally cant play the game like it is at the moment, terrible shame, and i wait patiently for the patch but there it is.  So in regards to self preservation and the factors that go into it like, training, experience, morale, they all have cause and effect agaisnt each other but for me, units breaking cover like that is more about leadership than anything else.  If leadership is bad a unit will always suffer.  In the nitty gritty part of fighting and killing soldiers will stay the course for their mates, 'well, jims not running so im staying to' simplistic but true, combine that with good leadership and you will have a fairly solid and robust fighting force.  Change that with bad leadership and you get problems, big, small and catastrophic.  In a lot of enquiries regarding units breaking or not functioning as they should most of the time the main problem can be placed at the door of poor leadership, sometimes mixed in with poor training.  (A modern showcase for this was Viking company in afghan in regards to LCpl Ford at jugroom fort, bad leadership and training made a **** situation worse, and im not knocking the royals because i have a lot of friends who serve or have served in the royals its just that was the first one that popped in my head and fit the bill nicely).  

So, self preservation, at a basic level, get contacted, first instinct, hit the dirt, see if you can locate the firing point, then if possible shoot back, cause why wouldnt you, the modern training mantra is, dash, down, observe, sights, fire, that gets drummed into you and kicked into you, well it used to before everyone became snowflakes lol, all the way through basics, guess where most of this came from, yup WW2 experiences, because absolute hoards of data was accumalated and studied and number crunched, alot more than quite a few people realise, this was, over time  assimilated into the training and essence/culture of military training, it never happens overnight, its a slow progressive wheel that keeps turning and learning, the military, (british) for me, may seem to take forever to learn a lesson, especially in relative peaceful times, but they do learn.  So, having said all that, mr pixel is in a trench with his pixel buddies taking sporadic arty fire, in RL hes gonna stay right there with his head down hoping hes not going to die, because he knows if he gets up hes more than likely going to die and also let his mates and unit down, that is why he stays.  In V4 as it stands at the moment, for me any way, this is the exception to the rule, i always see full healthy squads/platoons get up and leg it after being under fire for short periods, and this happens constantly during one scenario.  If this was a true depiction of self preservation then what happenend with WW1, the trenches would have been 3 quarters empty.  How about normandy, pretty much all the airborne troops dropped were GREEN, with zero combat experience, did they break and run around like ninnys, nope.  Seeing units decide they have had enough and wish to be elsewhere should be the exception, the rarity,  it shouldnt be where you constantly have to herd your pixeltruppen back into position, its not realistic and its bloody annoying.

 

And rant finished, phew, definetly havent had enough coffee yet this morning, didnt mean to go on but this has been seriously bugging me for a while i could go more in depth, but flogging a horse and all that, i think you catch my drift.

 

So sitting serenly now waiting for the patch.