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They meant september of next year!


tavichh

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9 hours ago, SgtHatred said:

I don't think there is any need to apologize for missing a release window, but I'll repeat that it is not too much to ask for the community to be informed when that window is no longer viable. 

Oh I agree, I thought I'd been quite clear (the sources posted), that it's simply the neglectful communications, to which I'm referring, and Steve himself seems to concur could be better!

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1 hour ago, snarre said:

i think big part of uss are waiting moustly 4.0 engine patch. because that is take too long to get out of pipe line.

Yes I am hoping the patch will be released alongside SF2. I want the new infantry spacing, peeking around corners, small rivers etc and the things that have been broken with the third patch i.e. breaching charges for Black Sea but I don't want to deal with the new arty behaviour.

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- There has been a very long wait for v4.0 patch

- Pre-orders were made with an expectation that a new game would be available by the end of September

- BFC is famous for not communicating about plans and release dates

Given the above, yes, I agree that there is plenty of ground for legitimate frustration. In my dream world, some sort of polished PR-type would be posting weekly updates.

As to v4.0, Occum's Razor applies: if it were simple, it would've already been released. Is it frustrating to have some egregious TacAI behavior problems in v3.12? Yes. If v4.0 were ready, you'd have it. Or, would you rather have a version which needs another (long-delayed) patch? I don't think substituting a "bad" version with another "bad" version is the way to go. 

Pre-orders have a bit of a quid pro quo: you pay less, but sooner, with no product in hand. Well, that's still the case.

As for BFC's communications, let's look at what has happened. BFC communicated an expected release date...and missed it. Now, expectations are dashed and there is (righteous) anger. If they had never communicated an expected release date, this would not have happened. Hence, why BFC does not communicate plans and release dates.

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5 hours ago, c3k said:

If they had never communicated an expected release date, this would not have happened. Hence, why BFC does not communicate plans and release dates.

Paradoxical statement!! Either they did provide an indication or they didn't!

Regardless, preorder implicitly requires some indication for release, otherwise it renders the concept of preorder totally meaningless. 

For arguments sake, if it were "leaked" that the game won't be released till next summer, how many here would opt to have their money back for now and we'll "preorder" again next Easter instead (or perhaps not at all)?!!? 

Edited by The Steppenwulf
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I would love to pre-order CM:SF2, but my concern is whether the game is going to be delayed. We're already at Sept. 27 and no further info has been released, at least from my understanding. Don't get me wrong, I have full intention of purchasing CM (seems like a pretty incredible game), but the fact remains I could spend my money on something else for the time being (Steel Beasts, TrackIR, etc.).

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1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Paradoxical statement!! Either they did provide an indication or they didn't!

Regardless, preorder implicitly requires some indication for release, otherwise it renders the concept of preorder totally meaningless. 

For arguments sake, if it were "leaked" that the game won't be released till next summer, how many here would opt to have their money back for now and we'll "preorder" again next Easter instead (or perhaps not at all)?!!? 

My bold. Yeah, I'd say a lot. No, I won't be pinned down to a percentage! ;) As to the "not at all" (re-pre-order, if that's a word), well, c'mon: this is Combat Mission. You'll do it. You may grumble, but you'll do it. :)

FWIW, I don't commit money to pre-order...ever.  But, that's only because I got burned in the past. (See "Trespasser", an early computer game loosely based on Jurassic Park. Yeah...never again will I order after I got that p.o.s.) There's a boardgame company which lets you pre-order, but they do not bill you until the game is about to ship. As in a day or two prior, if that early.

However, BFC has an ironclad reputation for delivering... It's just that they also have a reputation of taking longer than a lot of folks would like. This is a case in point.

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5 minutes ago, c3k said:

See "Trespasser", an early computer game loosely based on Jurassic Park. Yeah...never again will I order after I got that p.o.s.

WAAAH! I had many a frustrating but fun night playing Trespasser. Man, that game had the absolute WORST controls ever seen! I actually finished it, though.

As far as the dramatics go, I just wanted to know if SF2 is gonna be late, so I can re-calibrate my expectations. I think that's all most of us wanted to know. But at this point it's looking like it will be LOL. Three more days and the question will be moot and answered.

 

Mord.

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10 hours ago, c3k said:

As for BFC's communications, let's look at what has happened. BFC communicated an expected release date...and missed it. Now, expectations are dashed and there is (righteous) anger. If they had never communicated an expected release date, this would not have happened. Hence, why BFC does not communicate plans and release dates.

That's intentionally misleading. People are taking issue with no subsequent posts being made, not with the initial announcement, and not even with the date possibly slipping.

My god - it is alarming to think that the message they might receive is to not post at all, rather than "post more than once".

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Gamers in relatively niche spaces can be tremendously forgiving. Take for instance NWI missing their release date for "Insurgency 2". They admitted they could not finish when they had claimed, gave the community a new date (end of the year), and extended their open beta until the new release window. Players largely responded with mild disappointment combined with a thumbs up and a thank you for all the hard work.

Radio silence, on the other hand, is usually greeted with undo rage.

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The most frustrating thing to me is that  when someone complains about the comms blackout, it's immediately run up as a tirade about missing deadlines.  There are a number of people who have specifically stated that its not about the date, its about being left in the dark.

Can someone who is in any kind of "know" just address that?  And its not just about this site.  There are threads on other sites where the attitude is much harsher about the lack of updates.  And those sites should be a marketing dream for BFC.  Instead, BFC is vilified for not communicating. 

A simple five minutes to post an update would solve this particular point.  A simple "Its taking longer than expected.   Limited time, overly complex, unexpected challenges, dog ate my homework, yada yada."

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4 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

The most frustrating thing to me is that  when someone complains about the comms blackout, it's immediately run up as when someone complains about the comms blackout it's immediately run up as a tirade about missing deadlines. There are a number of people who have specifically stated that its not about the date, its about being left in the dark.

Can someone who is in any kind of "know" just address that?  And its not just about this site.  There are threads on other sites where the attitude is much harsher about the lack of updates.  And those sites should be a marketing dream for BFC.  Instead, BFC is vilified for not communicating. 

A simple five minutes to post an update would solve this particular point.  A simple "Its taking longer than expected.   Limited time, overly complex, unexpected challenges, dog ate my homework, yada yada."

Point understood, really we aren't deaf.  What are you expecting though?  We can't make Steve want to post. He obviously isn't interested in the communication format that some folks here want.  There is no PR dept so if Steve doesn't want to do it, there is no one else.  Someone "in the know" doesn't exist.  Beta testers are just that beta testers.  We are not public speakers for BF and are explicitly prevented from discussing anything.  You can PM Steve if you like , but posting on the forum is hit and miss as to whether he will even read much less feel like responding.

And the reason that this -> when someone complains about the comms blackout

Becomes this -> it's immediately run up as a tirade about missing deadlines

Is because usually folks are complaining about a specific product/patch deadline.  Not everyone who has an issue about BF comms has the same issue.  You guys can sort out what might be an agreeable comms format that would meet everyone's expectations.

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I know you are just beta testers.  But it is you guys that come back in and seem to try to turn the conversation about everyone picking on Steve and BFC.  And you come across as semi-official.  So what you say carries some weight.

Instead of just saying, yeah, we know it sucks that our boss doesn't communicate, you feel the need to aggregate every slight BFC has ever faced in their 19 year history.  There are a couple beta testers that generalize individual statements into all out customer-led attacks on all that is BFC.  It would probably be better as a beta tester to not say anything.  Let it go.  By you guys coming in and trying to ride herd, you are letting Steve and BFC off the hook on their poor business practices. 

People will come in and complain.  So what?  Its not like BFC is going to suddenly change or salvage its reputation in single forum thread.  You guys do more harm then good when you circle the wagons on issues that are legitimate or excuse away BFC's actions/inactions.  You guys, as beta testers seem very frustrated by these conversations.  So why do you involve yourselves?   Let BFC address it, or not.

I came to the place in my life that I recognize that BFC makes great games, but, outside a cadre of old players and beta testers, they really don't like their customers much.  I still play now and then, and I poke my head in now and then, but I tend not to take stuff personally much.  As long as the games are good, I'll put up with the abuse.

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3 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

I came to the place in my life that I recognize that BFC makes great games, but, outside a cadre of old players and beta testers, they really don't like their customers much.

They're more likely just burned out by customers.

BF: If everything works out we're looking at releasing it by the end of August...

Customer: You promised it would be out by September. Where is my game?

BF: For those who like that sort of thing you can preorder the game.

Customer: Where is the game I paid for?

This sort of thing isn't just reserved for CM and BF. I see a fledging developer in another genre working on a project aimed at the hardcore player, that is in early access. Progress is slow, but updates still come out when they have something new to show.

Customer1: Vaporware

Customer2: This is not optimised at all and runs slow.

Customer3: The current build is lacking in features.

Customer4: Where is the feature we were promised?

I thank God that I never opted for a career in gaming. I also thank God that in my current job I no longer have to deal with customers.

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Its part of business.  If your customers are burning you out, you shouldn't be in business or you are in the wrong business.  Most of the complaints can and should be handled fairly easily.  But not addressing them just pushes the problem down the road.  And it not just gaming.  Go work in a car dealership service department for a while.  Now that is a real crap show.

I actually feel bad for the beta testers.  They are left on the boards once again to keep the barbarians off the gates.  I don't know if BFC has ceded their marketing and comms to them or not, but it sure seems like it, again.

Business would be so much easier without customers.

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I wold also like to point again that, even though I expressly stated this is about comms, someone comes in and says its about release dates.  Its some kind of obsession.  The example should have been:

BF: If everything works out we're looking at releasing it by the end of August...

end of August comes and goes

Customer: Is the game going to be released soon?

BF: {silence}

Customer: What's the status of the game I preordered?

Beta tester, et al: Stop giving BFC a hard time for missing the date

Customer: Can we just get a status on the release and patch?

Beta testers, et al: Stop bringing this up or BFC will stop making games

continues on for a few weeks...

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4 hours ago, Thewood1 said:

I know you are just beta testers.  But it is you guys that come back in and seem to try to turn the conversation about everyone picking on Steve and BFC.  And you come across as semi-official.  So what you say carries some weight.

Instead of just saying, yeah, we know it sucks that our boss doesn't communicate, you feel the need to aggregate every slight BFC has ever faced in their 19 year history.  There are a couple beta testers that generalize individual statements into all out customer-led attacks on all that is BFC.  It would probably be better as a beta tester to not say anything.  Let it go.  By you guys coming in and trying to ride herd, you are letting Steve and BFC off the hook on their poor business practices. 

People will come in and complain.  So what?  Its not like BFC is going to suddenly change or salvage its reputation in single forum thread.  You guys do more harm then good when you circle the wagons on issues that are legitimate or excuse away BFC's actions/inactions.  You guys, as beta testers seem very frustrated by these conversations.  So why do you involve yourselves?   Let BFC address it, or not.

I came to the place in my life that I recognize that BFC makes great games, but, outside a cadre of old players and beta testers, they really don't like their customers much.  I still play now and then, and I poke my head in now and then, but I tend not to take stuff personally much.  As long as the games are good, I'll put up with the abuse.

well you are certainly entitled to your opinion and as a customer so am I.  I'll simply say this to keep this from totally going off the rails.  I am also a customer and I flat out disagree with your view and I am certainly entitled to express that opinion. You can call that circling the wagons or whatever you want that makes you feel like you are on some moral high ground.  In my view though you are still simply wrong.

BF has addressed it, more than once yet that doesn't seem to stop anyone. - See Steve's post from August cited earlier in this thread.  Sorry you feel so "abused".  Whatever.

 

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From my point of view, I have learned that a lot more effort is going into the update than originally planned, e.g. most/all scenarios being tweaked/improved, new artwork, new functionality. For me that is a good thing, and I understand that this might/will delay a delivery date. I am checking in regularly because I want to get my hands on the game - I see this as a positive thing. I am not having a go at Battlefront at all. I am sure they are working to deliver a top quality experience. It would be helpful simply to get an updated idea of when it will arrive so I can manage my own expectations. And this is all in the context that the deadline hasn’t even passed yet!

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1 hour ago, sburke said:

Sorry you feel so "abused".  Whatever.

 

To the point about customers complaining, does anyone else find it inherently fascinating that business in general often has this complexion: We survive only because of customers, yet their very presence is an exhausting weight that must be endured. They are both the sole reason for your existence, and, seemingly, a kind of existential burden.

I have spent about $300.00 here. That's more than I've given AAA game developers in the last year. If I didn't find it so sweetly ironic I would find it incredibly sad that posts in the same vein as mine are read by Battlefront as attacks - or, as Burke suggests: whining.

The people "whining" are, perhaps quite literally given the size of the community, the only people allowing you to contribute to making these games.

I can tell you that the response from beta testers and the like have made me pause on a purchase of Red Thunder. It felt wrong for the moment to be so disappointed in the staff, and then hand them more money. If you're looking for an effect caused by your behaviour, there's a clue.

Edited by Snake726
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5 minutes ago, Snake726 said:

 

To the point about customers complaining, does anyone else find it inherently fascinating that business in general often has this complexion: We survive only because of customers, yet their very presence is an exhausting weight that must be endured. They are both the sole reason for your existence, and, seemingly, a kind of existential burden.

I have spent about $300.00 here. That's more than I've given AAA game developers in the last year. If I didn't find it so sweetly ironic I would find it incredibly sad that posts in the same vein as mine are ready by Battlefront as attacks - or, as Burke suggests: whining.

The people "whining" are, perhaps quite literally given the size of the community, the only people allowing you to contribute to making these games.

I can tell you that the response from beta testers and the like have made me pause on a purchase of Red Thunder. It felt wrong for the moment to be so disappointed in the staff, and then hand them more money. If you're looking for an effect caused by your behaviour, there's a clue.

It's important not to paint Battlefront with the same brush as some of their more "dedicated" fans, because it isn't fair to Battlefront. These "super fans" take any criticism of the game, or even sometimes bug reports, as personal attacks. You'll see their kind in any sort of niche community, it's best to ignore them.  

Edited by SgtHatred
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That is a fair point Sgt, thanks for calling me out on that - I don't know the community well enough to know who assists on projects, who is a super-fan, and who might be both. That was, admittedly, a heated response prompted by sburke.

I get the radio silence, I really do - I work in games and have been in interviews where people tell me how much they hate talking to their fans. Valve, for instance, has a lot of money - but no longer has anyone speak to their various communities. They prefer relative radio silence to engaging. Because it is exhausting, and some people are indeed irrational. At the same time, to some extent, BF is allowing these "dedicated fans" to speak for them in their stead. I feel like the only thing I can do is withhold spurious purchases until I get some indication that the team is alive. My wallet is the only mechanism I have to work with here. As I write this I have just gotten an update email from the John Tiller team about the status of their North Africa game, and some information on the creation of an OOB and map design for their Crete campaign. It is difficult to weigh the two options and choose to reward BF, and not John Tiller, when the Tiller team is being so diligent and professional.

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