Lackluster documentation

[Erwin]

Re:

want to know whether my vehicle spots like this or like this or like this:

Not sure that this sort of info will help you in CM games as VM doesn't have that sort of granularity.  It's hard to know what is "RL accurate" and what are abstractions that "appear accurate" - but are actually examples of verisimilitude.

[Kaunitz]

14 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Not sure that this sort of info will help you in CM games as VM doesn't have that sort of granularity.  It's hard to know what is "RL accurate" and what are abstractions that "appear accurate" - but are actually examples of verisimilitude.

Every game has rules/abstractions. In this case, crew slots must have some spotting type and strength? I want to know the rules of the game, as the link between reality and game is not obvious and not self-evident (as in WWII titles). It's often unclear what kind of  devices the real vehicles are equipped with (russian internet sites...) and it's unclear if and how they are represented in the game. There must be some system to it.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Kaunitz

[Haiduk]

2 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

Now at least I know more about the BMP-2s spotting in the real world (it seems to suck ^^). 

Well, here some more for you about BMP-2 optic )

On this scheme you can see deployment of simple oservation optic devices for crew and infantry:

1 - TNPO-170 optic devices of driver (4 pieces); 2 - TNPO-170 and 3 - TNP-165 devices for infantryman place (by field manual this is machinegunner place); 4 - TNPO-170 of commander (2 pieces); 8 - TNPO-170 of gunner (3 pieces); 5 -TNPT-1 rear view devises for commander and gunner; 6 TNPO-170 for infanty (3 pieces per side and one per back door)

TNPO-170 this is simple prism periscopic observation device w/o zoom, which can turn in two spaces and maintains an observation in 91 degree in horizontal space and 23 degrees in vertical space. Angle of view is 34 deg. in horizontal space and 7 deg. in vertical space. Device has light mask blind and electrical heating

TNP-165 the similar device, but w/o heating and blind. It also can be turned in two spaces 71 in horizontal and 33 in vertical. Angle of view is the same as in TNPO-170

TNPT-1 has angle of view in 52 deg. (horizontal) and 7 deg.(vertical). Also has elecric heating and the blind.   

 

Except simple observation devices, commander and gunner has next sights:

1P3-3 monocular periscope for commander (day only). It uses for searhing and aiming BMP weapon to surfase and aerial targets (aerial targets can be aimed only when BMP stands). Angles of turning: 360 deg horizontal, -6...+81 vertical (but vertical aiming limeted in -4...+60 deg), zoom 1,2x and 4,9x angles of view: 49 deg (1,4x) and 14 deg (4,9x)

TKN-3B binocular periscope for commander (day/night). It uses for battlefield observation, searching targets and measuring of the range to its. This device merged with IR lighter OU-3GA2. Zoom: 4,75x (day) and 4x (night). Device has rotation angles: 270 deg in horizonta and 7 in vertical. Angle of view: 10 deg (4,75x day) and 8 deg (4x night). Rangefinder scale built by "tank" type target with height 2,7 m. Nightview range for ""tank" target (clear athmosphere) : 400 m (side projection) and 300 m (frontal projection).

BPK-2-42 binocular sight for gunner (day/night). It uses for aiming the gun and MG of BMP as well as for observation. Merged with IR lighter OU-5. Zoom: 6x (day) / 5,5x (night). Angle of view: 10 deg (day)/ 6,4 deg (night). Nightview range for "tank" target (clear athmosphere): up to 600-700 m in passive mode, up to 950 m in active mode

Edited September 24, 2018 by Haiduk

[Kaunitz]

Very cool stuff! Thanks a lot! 

So, to summarize: 

• The gunner has 4 periscopes for his mk.1 eyeballs, all oriented to the front, perhaps covering 180°. 
• Let's ignore the machine gunner's seat.
• The gunner (turret/left) has three periscopes oriented to the front of the turret (taken together, they also probably cover about 180°) and one vision slit (61°/7°) oriented to the rear (probably checked less often). Then, mainly for aiming the gun, the gunner has a special sight (BPK-2-42) which includes an infra red search light. Summed up, this spotting device gives him 6x zoom in daylight and 5.5x zoom in nighttime which should enable him to spot "tank targets" (?) pretty reliably up to 600 meters (no clue what active and passive mode refers to).
• The commander (which is missing in 2 of 3 BMPs; turret/right) has two ordinary periscopes oriented to the front and one oriented to the rear. He also has a special spotting device (TKN-3B) including an infra red searchlight, which gives him 4.75x zoom in daylight and 4x zoom during the night but has a comparatively narrow field of view. His other special spotting device (1P3-3) can rotate 360° degree, but is weaker in terms of night capability (no IR).
• I suppose that the infra-red spotting devices are not thermal. So they would enable you to see for the specified ranges at night, but enemies can still stay relatively safe if they stick to ordinary rules of camouflage (break up their silhouettes).
• Passengers have periscopes oriented to the front/sides of the vehicle. 
• There is one vision slit in each of the doors at the rear of the vehicle (in the game these are displayed as shut).

So, how would these characteristics be "translated" into the game? I think it would be an interesting experiment to speculate. We know that spotting cycles work in intervalls (7 seconds if units are far away from each other, shorter if they're close). Maybe the vehicle has a constant, slightly randomized spotting value for each of its sides (e.g. front, front-left, front-right, etc)? Maybe the game indeed simulates each individual crew member and makes it use only one of its many spotting options per turn (so, for example, the driver would use only one of his three periscopes per spotting cycle). Then the question how the game treats "zooming in" (smaller field of view but more detailed) still remains. In any case the important information that really interests me would be: 

• At least 1 pair of eyeballs will be looking out to the front of the vehicle. Maybe they have some problems to spot targets close to the ground (not sure about that vertical field of view)?
• The gunner has only has low quality (no thermal imaging) night vision up to a range of ca. 600m. This nightvision seems to be limited to the direction that the turret is currently facing.
• If there is a commander in the vehicle, he has relatively good all around spotting capabilities, but only during the day (no night vision). And he further increases the night spotting capabilities of the vehicle in the direction the turret is facing. 
• If the passengers are really supposed to look out through their vision slits, the vehicle might have some small spotting chances to its flanks and rear. 

Or, put as short and practical as possible:

• Hull/front: 1 spotter (day: low quality - to represent basic eyeballs-, no night vision)
• Hull/sides: up to 3 spotters (passengers) (day: very low quality - to represent the small chance that the passengers are actively looking out? -, no night vision)
• hull/rear: up to 2 spotters (day: very, very low quality, no night vision)
• Turret/fixed to facing: 1 or 2 (if commander) spotters (day: medium quality, night: low quality up to ca. 600m (gunner), low quality up to ca. 300m (commander))
• Turret/not fixed to facing: up to 1 spotter (commander) (360°, day: medium quality, no night vision)

In the manual, it would help if I could just find this single piece of information: IR capability limited to the turret's current facing, low quality (up to ca. 400m)

Edited September 24, 2018 by Kaunitz

[Haiduk]

10 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

• Turret/not fixed to facing: up to 1 spotter (commander) (360°, day: medium quality, no night vision)

I forgot to point - TKN-3B observation periscope of commander can rotate in horizontal space on 270 deg and 7 deg in vertical. So, commander has two not fixed devices. Edited in previous post.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Haiduk

[Kaunitz]

Interesting discussion, related topic: 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

20 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

So, how would these characteristics be "translated" into the game? I think it would be an interesting experiment to speculate. We know that spotting cycles work in intervalls (7 seconds if units are far away from each other, shorter if they're close). Maybe the vehicle has a constant, slightly randomized spotting value for each of its sides (e.g. front, front-left, front-right, etc)?

Yes, there is a cycle - the duration of which is relevant only when we want to get into the weeds. There is most definitely *not* a randomized spotting value per side of the vehicle.

20 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

Maybe the game indeed simulates each individual crew member and makes it use only one of its many spotting options per turn (so, for example, the driver would use only one of his three periscopes per spotting cycle). Then the question how the game treats "zooming in" (smaller field of view but more detailed) still remains

The game does indeed simulate each individual crew member and takes into account the spotting assistance / hindrance that they have available to them. How they treat the choice of view port is unknown and there is some randomness factored in. One day the driver will spot the enemy at a certain spot before the gunner and one day the gunner will and the time it takes for them to notice something will very too.

[Haiduk]

32 minutes ago, IanL said:

There is most definitely *not* a randomized spotting value per side of the vehicle.

In Soviet army in 80th years was conducted investigation how much time tank commander observe different zones, when the tank have typical task. I can be wrong but one of results was that 80 or 90 % of time (I don't recall now) commander was observing frontal sector in 110 degrees.

TKN device is not so easy to use. In has big weight, so commander can't continuosly turn it trough full sector in 270 or 360 deg like squirrel in the wheel. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Haiduk

[Kinophile]

On 9/24/2018 at 2:08 PM, DerKommissar said:

I wouldn't mind a Combat Mission Encyclopedia, like in ToW or Graviteam. So, you can read and learn about the equipment as it is presented in-game, compare them and maybe even just mess around. Or maybe give every unit in the game a more verbose unit card, like in Wargame. Where it tells you what the viewing angles and spotting modifiers you get. Maybe a cross-section of the vehicle with all its components specified?

I usually look these things up on google and expect them to work the same way in-game. So it's no biggie. Would be helpful for newer players though, especially those unfamiliar with certain equipment. There's always this:

http://combatmission.wikia.com

Really recommend this site, if any of you guys post there: thank you!

This, a thousand times THIS. 

[Kinophile]

On 9/24/2018 at 2:25 PM, Kaunitz said:

Just by looking at the vehicle, you don't know that its spotting sucks (all you can see is that it has an entry "IR optics", like 95% of all the vehicles in the game).

Agreed. I want to know if it's 2/3/4th hen IR optics. Or even the brand, for immersion's sake, because just IR is pretty useless.