Bulletpoint Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Does anyone have a document that shows the effects of the different weather conditions on maximum spotting distance, chance to spot, possibly mortar accuracy, etc? Sometimes, the scenario designer will do a helpful note in the briefing, saying "It's late afternoon and foggy. Max LOS is about 200m". That's very useful info, but maybe somebody compiled it into a handy chart? (I know it depends on light levels too, but some basic standardised info based on, say, 1st of August at noon, would be nice...) Made up this example of what I'd like to find: Fog Decreased spotting chance from 50m Max distance to spot stationary vehicle, 120m Max distance to spot firing vehicle, 180m Max distance to spot moving vehicle, 200m Max distance for area fire, 300m And yes, I realise it probably doesn't exist and I'll have to make it, myself 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Steppenwulf Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I don't think anyone has done this but wow yes it would be invaluable info, not only for scenario designers, but also for players at the start of games. One thing related to this is the extent of rain, the effect on ground conditions and the impact on chances of bogging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) The tricky thing with the effects on LOS/LOF is that the effect is not the same for each Weather cannot be separated from light levels (dawn/noon etc) How to deal with this? The LOF tool is handy for determining what you can shoot. Say it’s a dawn battle, with low light, and misty weather. Use the LOF tool to see how far your unit can hit something. Your LOS will be somewhat less far than the LOF. Also don’t forget that what you see as visuals does not represent what your units can see. You as a player see better for the purpose of facilitating command and play. Your units follow the LOF tool results I described above. Using this and some experience, I never felt the need for some chart showing these limitations, but that’s just me. Edited August 1, 2018 by Bud Backer More cogent text 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Regarding Bogging... I did testing for CMFB’s snow settings back in the beta days. I don’t recall the specific numbers, but I can tell you that deep snow is such that it will bog around 25% of vehicles, per turn. Unless that was subsequently adjusted. In a nutshell, if it’s deep snow, I would not buy vehicles unless I was going to use them as bunkers. Yes, it’s that bad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bud Backer said: The LOF tool is handy for determining what you can shoot. Say it’s a dawn battle, with low light, and misty weather. Use the LOF tool to see how far your unit can hit something. Your LOS will be somewhat less far than the LOF. It's that "somewhat" I'd like to quantify a bit better. Maybe not as a complete chart, but more as a couple of rules of thumb. I know it depends on many variables, but that's not to say there can't be some general guidelines worked out... One thing that keeps boggling me is how much of an impact moving and firing has. It seems a moving tank has a huge extra risk to get spotted. Higher than if it's stationary and fires. If one tank is stationary and an enemy tank moves into LOF, the moving tank will very likely be spotted quite quickly, even at long ranges, in bad weather, and even if it moves up a hill and directly into hull-down position. But again, it's just based on my experience and "feel" for the game. Maybe when I retire I will sit down and test it all out, but as I'm only 38, that hopefully will be a while yet Edited August 1, 2018 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I understand what you’re saying, however we’re still dealing with a lot of variables. Terrain, experience, how far/fast a tank is moving, to use your example, all have an effect. What about the observer? They’re not all alike. I think to obtain a useable reference would be exhaustive. Why do I say useable? Because if someone said, at noon on a day with heavy fog, visibility will be 30m, I still have so much else to worry about that will modify that that to me it’s almost useless, in that I can obtain that info using the LOF Tool, and won’t be all the wiser. Sure, I’d like to know it’s not 100m, but at some point the differences become superceded by, say, what angle I’m hitting that tank’s armour at as it will matter more (penetration vs no pen). Not being argumentative, just I don’t see this data being able to be so granular making much difference in what I do. The tool and experience will tell me what I need to know. More useful, in my view, would be some bogging stats. If we’re talking 1% difference between one or another terrain, who cares, but the info about deep snow certainly gave me an oh, s**t moment! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 22 minutes ago, Bud Backer said: Not being argumentative, just I don’t see this data being able to be so granular making much difference in what I do. No worries, I don't see you as being argumentative. I get what you're saying and it makes sense. At the end of the day, what I would like is to have a better understanding of the visibility, so that I would be able to plan ahead better - "when I take this position, I will be able to put tanks on this lille hill, and then they'll have a reasonable chance of spotting enemy armour on the other side of the valley". Not asking for certainty, just a general idea would be great. So, if I had something like a rule that if it's misty and the LOS tool gives blue line till 1000m, that means I'll have a chance of a spot at up to 800m. That's 80 pct of max. Maybe for fog it would be 50%? When I play, I try to work towards that kind of understanding, but I find it challenging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 By the way, does the speed of a tank affect how likely it is to get spotted? I only knew it affected the distance it can be heard... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Quote At the end of the day, what I would like is to have a better understanding of the visibility, so that I would be able to plan ahead better - "when I take this position, I will be able to put tanks on this lille hill, and then they'll have a reasonable chance of spotting enemy armour on the other side of the valley". Not asking for certainty, just a general idea would be great. And that’s a perfectly rational and reasonable thing to want. My experience has been a bit limited. I have not played countless scenarios where visibility was both impeded AND affected the battle strategy. (In other words, on a map only 500m square, I don’t care if I can see 200m or 175). However, what I believe happens is that if you take your LOF tool, and say it reads, 100m.. it will be perhaps only a few metres past what you can see. Let’s say, 10m? 5m? IE: LOS might be 95 or 90m. Honestly I never worried too much about the difference. What I’m getting at - and I’d suggest you try to verify this yourself - is that rather than the vision distance being: LOS=80% LOF It might be LOS=LOF-X metres where X is more or less constant, like 5m or 10m This would need to be tested, of course. But it is my belief based on experience that LOF goes just a little bit more than LOS. I also believe this might be to permit area fire on contacts just beyond LOS, thus there is no reason to have LOF extend far beyond. Edited August 1, 2018 by Bud Backer Egregious typos that detract from the artistry of the page layout. ;) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 It's always nice to have tons of info in a game so one can micromanage to enact perfect tactics etc. But, as said above, RL LOS can vary in the same weather conditions depending on location. Is fog or rain density ever 100% homogeneous? IIRC that's why BF stopped providing those wonderful CM1 range penetration and firepower effects tables in CM2. There's no harm in having info, but studying them and expecting the same result every time makes the game less realistic imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Yes, In general I’d agree. I used to love stats. I loved them so much I memorized them simply by poring over them so often. And when I started playing CM I discovered that knowing that Sherman ahead has 53mm or 45mm frontal armour is not likely to impact tactics all that much. Knowing it’s a Jumbo would, but that’s a considerable difference. And I can’t imagine any RL commander being ALLOWED to use these stats meaningfully. Not because they are ordered to, rather, that mission exigencies require one to. ”Lieutenant, see that bridge. Your orders are to stop the Panthers and Tigers that will be coming down this road. Use whatever means at your disposal. Whatever happens, do not let the enemy cross!” and the poor lieutenant looks at his 37mm ATG and says, “Yes, Sir!” Edited August 1, 2018 by Bud Backer Double exclamation marks. Not suitable per style guide 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 7 hours ago, Bud Backer said: LOS=LOF-X metres where X is more or less constant, like 5m or 10m This would need to be tested, of course. But it is my belief based on experience that LOF goes just a little bit more than LOS. I also believe this might be to permit area fire on contacts just beyond LOS, thus there is no reason to have LOF extend far beyond. Interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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