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43 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I actually have a scenario I've been playing with for years based on a historic German attack on a Soviet strongpoint.. has trenches and mines galore.  I have been toying with cleaning it up and releasing it, but am having an issue with the AI.  Maybe an email to @George MC is in order. ;)  

Bil

I can take wee look at it if you like - if its a smallish set-up would have the time to check out?

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40 minutes ago, DMS said:

By the way, is it possible to destroy mines and wire by artillery/tank fire in the game? I tried, unsuccessfully.

Yes, absolutely. I have done all combinations of the above except direct tank fire vs mines. But I see no reason that it would not work, I just have not done it. As the old saying goes, if a little HE didn't work, add more.

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3 hours ago, DMS said:

By the way, is it possible to destroy mines and wire by artillery/tank fire in the game? I tried, unsuccessfully.

Below is my understanding of how it works. 

Artillery / mines: Sometimes. Artillery can destroy mines if the artillery is 150mm or greater and makes a direct hit.  

Artillery / barbwire: Yes but not usually practical.  Most artillery can destroy barbwire but often it takes many rounds.  Not sure if light stuff like 60mm mortars will destroy wire.   

Tanks / mines: No.  Today, in CMFI V2.0 Engine 4, I had a team of engineers locate a mixed minefield (not Mark).  I then had three Sherman tanks Area Target the minefield until all HE of all three tanks was expended.  The minefield remained intact (The minefield sign did not change to green sign with a white X). 

I made the same test in CMBS v2.1 Engine 4.  Three M1s vs a mixed minefield.  They fired a total of 54 120mm Muti rounds.  The minefield remained intact. 

Tanks / wire: No.  In January 2016 in CMFI I tested a Sherman tank vs barbwire.  The Sherman tank Area Targeted three sections of wire until all 51 of its’ HE rounds were gone.  The wire remained intact.  (Tanks can easily crush barbwire with their tracks but will take some track damage.)  

Edited by MOS:96B2P
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1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Tanks / mines: No.  Today, in CMFI V2.0 Engine 4, I had a team of engineers locate a mixed minefield (not Mark).  I then had three Sherman tanks Area Target the minefield until all HE of all three tanks was expended.  The minefield remained intact (The minefield sign did not change to green sign with a white X). 

I made the same test in CMBS v2.1 Engine 4.  Three M1s vs a mixed minefield.  They fired a total of 54 120mm Muti rounds.  The minefield remained intact. 

Well there you have it if @MOS:96B2P says so it is so.

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Tanks / wire: No.  In January 2016 in CMFI I tested a Sherman tank vs barbwire.  The Sherman tank Area Targeted three sections of wire until all 51 of its’ HE rounds were gone.  The wire remained intact.  (Tanks can easily crush barbwire with their tracks but will take some track damage.)  

Hummm... I am sure @MOS:96B2P is still correct: the thing is I swear I have done this. Now I am not sure if I miss-remembered or if something has changed.

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31 minutes ago, IanL said:

 I swear I have done this. Now I am not sure if I miss-remembered or if something has changed.

It's possible something may have changed at some point.  I know some players will use tanks to shoot out a section of farm fence (including wire farm fence) before driving a tank through it to keep from taking track damage.  This is the closest possibility that comes to mind. 

One of the great things about this forum is that we keep refreshing each other's memories which is helpful since I think most of us are over 40 :D.   

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I know from experience that you can use T-72 cannon in Black Sea to clear a small patch of minefield. It's very unreliable but with some luck you might detonate all three AT-mines in a single action square with one cannon shot. Gun caliber seems to be the main deciding factor whether it can detonate AT-mines or not. 

Had a pretty intense mechanized assault going on that ran into some stubborn light infantry defense covered with few tactical minefields. Lined up better part of two companies of t-72's to give fire support (in other words, completely razed the village the infantry was holed up in) and had a lead t-72 fire his way through the minefield. Then I cruised in through the remains of the village while my own arty barraged the remaining enemy infantry pinning them down. Charging through your own artillery barrage with tanks seemed appropriately Russian way to roll about and it sure worked nicely. 

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I was clearing a mined road with sappers, and then slowly moving my T-84 Oplot-M over the marked squares. All of a sudden -- boom! The tank lost a tread and was almost useless. Teaches me to clear mines -- I usually just go around them, after a GI or two spontaneously combust on squares which read "MINE ME".

Can sappers fail to spot mines when slowly moving over mined squares? Can they also fail to mark all of them? Can Mad Max tank drivers accidentally drive their tank on a marked mine?

Battle for Normandy had the funnies clearing mines. Why don't modern tanks get plows and rollers for the T-34s?

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Marking mines only helps infantry cross a mine field. Even then don't have them run through it - just walk. It makes no difference for vehicles. Engineers cannot clear mines in CM - the time needed for that job is way out of scope for a CM game.

Now if we had bangalore torpedos or the modern equivalent that would be awesome!

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2 minutes ago, IanL said:

Engineers cannot clear mines in CM - the time needed for that job is way out of scope for a CM game.

I am still strongly disagreeing on this one. Finding the mines (marking them) is the most time consuming part of real life demining. Just a small block of tnt with a time fuze can take care of most at-mines once found. Any self respecting  combat engineer squad should always have them on hand when supporting a advance. You can also just manually move the mines away from the way of vehicles once they are located but better use rope and hook in case they are booby trapped. 

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2 minutes ago, IanL said:

Now if we had bangalore torpedos or the modern equivalent that would be awesome!

I don't see why not. Could be used by the BLAST command. I am curious if the BLAST command would do anything to mines.

BLAST is my preferred method of breaching the worst kind of obstacle: the bocage.

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1 hour ago, H1nd said:

I am still strongly disagreeing on this one. Finding the mines (marking them) is the most time consuming part of real life demining. Just a small block of tnt with a time fuze can take care of most at-mines once found. Any self respecting  combat engineer squad should always have them on hand when supporting a advance. You can also just manually move the mines away from the way of vehicles once they are located but better use rope and hook in case they are booby trapped. 

Consider the length of time of an a average CM scenario, you have to first know there are mines, explore the field, then remove potentially under fire. Before you go lifting at mines you gotta be sure you aren’t wandering among ap mines. I don’t think in that time frame it is truly realistic.  I could be wrong, if you can speak from personal experience I could be swayed. 

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Well I am a trained combat engineer and a reserve officer. When it comes to breaching minefield to keep the assault going I do have a plenty of training. But it all really comes down to the specifics of the task. One can't simply state that demining is out of scope of CM. What do you guys really mean by that? Demining, mine removal, minefield breaching.. what ever you want to call it takes time proportional to the size of the task. Just like anything else. You need to clear a path through simple hastily laid AT-minefield with no AP-mines, minefield is 50 meters deep, has probably mines in about 5 rows, each mine about 5-10m apart (if using something likeTM62 or TM 65-77). If you can locate the mines which I asume the mark mines command in CM is about, then the hard part is already done. Getting rid of the found mines is easy. Now with AP-mines in the mix the whole thing gets much much harder but that is the thing.. that is entirely different task. 

In general the whole idea of combat engineers versus regular engineers is that these are the people who are there, right at the tip of the offensive and It is their only job to keep the offensive going forward at all cost. I don't claim it's easy or safe, but I am claiming that with proper training and equipment, you can breach small minefields, especially ones with only AT-mines in span of minutes. Well within the scope of combat mission. 

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1 hour ago, DerKommissar said:

I don't see why not. Could be used by the BLAST command.

Oh it could be modelled. It is a question of priorities. Would you like Shock Force sooner or later, would you like illumination added what about Schwimmwagen?

I joke but it really does come down to priorities. I still hold out hope that one day...

1 hour ago, DerKommissar said:

I am curious if the BLAST command would do anything to mines.

Oh yeah good point actually it can. The problem is that you cannot blast a mine field directly but if you are lucky and the mines are near a wall or bocage or wire and you get the blast direction correct you can take out mines and the blast-able target. I seem to recall that happening in an AAR once.

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27 minutes ago, sburke said:

I could be wrong, if you can speak from personal experience I could be swayed. 

Same - cool...

2 minutes ago, H1nd said:

What do you guys really mean by that?

We have had discussions of this on the forum before. I believe I was explaining BFC's official word on the subject. Gotta find that from the source...

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Just now, H1nd said:

Yeah, I have been about at this before as well. Personally i'm content if we just could get the mine clearing vehicles in the games at some point like the functional sherman crab in CMBN.

Oh yeah that would be sweet.

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In CMBS especially I envision some nice scenarios involving breaching a minefield under fire with mine plows and rollers and have the mech infantry come pouring through the breach while arty and fire support hammer down on the enemy. 

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