Antony Beevor's view on War Films

[DerKommissar]

90s Stalingrad movie was superb and thoroughly entertaining, except the obligational morality tale. As Eastern Front films go:

I absolutely adore the Liberation series. I have never seen combined arms battle scenes like that. The ATG sequence was fantastic. Valkyrie nicked the Schtaufenberg bit from this series, scene for scene. Except Valkyrie much longer and filled with silly Tom Cruise shenanigans (Tom wasn't too bad in this one). Is it historically accurate? I doubt it, a bit too much of "the national spirit" that's akin to Hollywood films. It does feel authentic, though -- even if it had a bunch of cold war tanks cosplaying as panzers.

The Soviet film industry took a lot of these movies seriously. At War as at War and Only Old Men Go To Battle are fantastic, and you can see them on youtube with english subtitles! 

It's also important to note that I enjoyed Patton, Der Untergang and A Bridge too Far. I can overlook glaring historical inaccuracies, if the filmakers do their best to make it feel authentic. Also, a good story and great casting help!

 

[Sublime]

Der Untergang was superb inaccuracies aside. I thought it caught the mood very well and the guy who played Hitler was superb.

The Bunker ( is that the name ) was amother good playing of Hitler.

i remember someone suggested the very old German movie Die Brucke on here to me in like 2001. I ordered it, it never showed, bitterly forgot about it and 2 years later voila. haha. It was a really good movie though, HJ defending a bridge against US troops.

Naturally being a 50s movie the special effects and battle scenes could be so much more now..

I really wish HBO had gone through with that Mighty 8th series based on Masters of the Air. The trailer looked incredible. However its been years without any news Id say that its a wrap - shame too the HBO format e.g. BoB favors following say a bomber crew, elite unit (101st..) or naval vessel, or as seen in Fury a tank.  Fury only exists in my mind because the special effects and battle scenes. The rest is... sigh.

[Aragorn2002]

28 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Der Untergang was superb inaccuracies aside. I thought it caught the mood very well and the guy who played Hitler was superb.

The Bunker ( is that the name ) was amother good playing of Hitler.

i remember someone suggested the very old German movie Die Brucke on here to me in like 2001. I ordered it, it never showed, bitterly forgot about it and 2 years later voila. haha. It was a really good movie though, HJ defending a bridge against US troops.

Naturally being a 50s movie the special effects and battle scenes could be so much more now..

I really wish HBO had gone through with that Mighty 8th series based on Masters of the Air. The trailer looked incredible. However its been years without any news Id say that its a wrap - shame too the HBO format e.g. BoB favors following say a bomber crew, elite unit (101st..) or naval vessel, or as seen in Fury a tank.  Fury only exists in my mind because the special effects and battle scenes. The rest is... sigh.

That's the trend nowadays. Great visual effects and a horrible phantasy story. Best example for me is Red Tails. German pilots who, while attacking the bomber formations, yell to their comrades 'Show no mercy!'. It almost turned my stomach., it really did.  Burn Hollywood indeed.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Aragorn2002

[Sublime]

U571 literally and Im American disgusted me and I didnt even sit through it. I didnt watch red tails because in the new( not rlly) post modern pc society everyone knows the entire US military was racist and the red tails were the best fighter unit anywhere ever because the color of their skin.

I fimd it especially ironic given the interviews Ive seen with actual black veterans saying things like " the first time I WASNT segregated was in the Nazi PoW camp. "

 

 

Regarding the U571 I mean really FFS theres enough outlandlishly action hero like things that actual Amerivans in WW2 did singlehandedly to crow about. It was a gigantic war you have dozens of examples on every side and more no one knows about.  Why the hell steal someone elses story?  Frankly I think its insulting to our actual veterans do that anyways. America certainly contributed its fair share enough for there to be stories aplenty and no reason for any revisionism or shame. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Sublime

[umlaut]

On 6/15/2018 at 12:35 AM, Erwin said:

Wasn't sure if you were being humorous.   I saw it and thought it suc***...  was quite poor.

Yes, it was a joke. I quit watching it after about half an hour. Found it an utter waste of time.

Speaking generally about WWII movies, I find that the german ones are usually the best. I think this is because the germans (for obvious historical reasons) cannot base their stories on same old "Sergeant X saves the day and at the end we all salute the flag and shed a tear"-clichés that seems to be all Hollywood is capable of producing.

The germans have to focus on a realistic story about real people in a real war. Stuff that is hard to press into a movie industry template filled with good vs evil stereotypes. The germans have to focus on a good script. And if the script is good, then the movies usually turns out to be too.

In Hollywood it seems that the script is much less important than the CGI.

Edited June 16, 2018 by umlaut

[Aragorn2002]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

U571 literally and Im American disgusted me and I didnt even sit through it. I didnt watch red tails because in the new( not rlly) post modern pc society everyone knows the entire US military was racist and the red tails were the best fighter unit anywhere ever because the color of their skin.

I fimd it especially ironic given the interviews Ive seen with actual black veterans saying things like " the first time I WASNT segregated was in the Nazi PoW camp. "

 

 

Regarding the U571 I mean really FFS theres enough outlandlishly action hero like things that actual Amerivans in WW2 did singlehandedly to crow about. It was a gigantic war you have dozens of examples on every side and more no one knows about.  Why the hell steal someone elses story?  Frankly I think its insulting to our actual veterans do that anyways. America certainly contributed its fair share enough for there to be stories aplenty and no reason for any revisionism or shame. 

Waterloo was mainly won by Prussian/German and Dutch-Belgian troops. Most of Wellington's army was formed by Dutch-Belgians and Germans. Hence my Blücher-profile. History is not only not fair, it's also a bloody liar.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Aragorn2002

[Sublime]

feel oddly embarrassed i didnt know that was Blucher

[Aragorn2002]

When I joined this forum, someone already had chosen the name Blücher. And since I'm a huge LOTR fan, my second choice was Aragorn.

[Sublime]

50 minutes ago, umlaut said:

Yes, it was a joke. I quit watching it after about half an hour. Found it an utter waste of time.

Speaking generally about WWII movies, I find that the german ones are usually the best. I think this is because the germans (for obvious historical reasons) cannot base their stories on same old "Sergeant X saves the day and at the end we all salute the flag and shed a tear"-clichés that seems to be all Hollywood is capable of producing.

The germans have to focus on a realistic story about real people in a real war. Stuff that is hard to press into a movie industry template filled with good vs evil stereotypes. The germans have to focus on a good script. And if the script is good, then the movies usually turns out to be too.

In Hollywood it seems that the script is much less important than the CGI.

Maybe. You Germans arent out of the woods completely though. You guys have plenty of soppy nationalistic old marching songs ( I had a comrade... ) and campy WW1/WW2 era productions.  All Quiet on the Western Front is brilliant but is not an example of average German literary work from the period.

 Im going to derail the thread here.. but I feel like I have to here - anyone else see the noticeable difference from how Germany was treated as far as rubbing their noses in what they did vs the Japanese who we went way softer on because the Cold War started?  Japanese history books are almost insulting or are downright insulting to America and basivally act like Ww1. Someone overflew Pearl Harbor by mistake. Nothing to see in China. OMG 5 CHAPTERS NUKES OMG 

And so in turn you see stuff like nationalism starting anew in Japan etc. And of course a warped view of history.

Hollywood does still make some hood war movies sometimes ( I thought Eastwoods dual movies about Iwo Jima from both perspectives were great) and has made some classics in the past. Also let us not forget Band of Brothers and The Pacific. Both I thought were well done and the Pacific hardly glamorizes the war or is overtly patriotic. Not a lot of raa raa American in pulling gold teeth from charred corpses. Just the terrible reality of the tragedy war is. I just really hope it doesnt take us losing two world wars to realize you dont have to have schlock, or uber nationalism to make a good war movie. And that being an infantryman is basically somewhat like being homeless with people trying to kill you all the time. Not as glorious as they.d like to make it.  I also feel that Spielberg in particular but also Ambrose as a historian do not just US troops but all Allied troops a disservice when they perpetually portray the Gernans as bungling fools.  They were quite formidable opponents and acknowledging that does more to honor the incredible sacrifices and underscores the very reason why it was such a big deal. Instead it always seems to be hordes of Germans getting gunned down.  This is especially pertinent too because as brutal as the PTO campaign wasthe Germans inflicted a lot more US casualties on us than the Japanese. Of course invading Japan would have changed that.

The REAL trash war movies are the Chinese war flicks about them fighting the Japanese. It.s comical to a westerner to see its so moronic. Theres literally one scene where a guy throws a grenade in the air, does a somersault and kick and the grenade flies into ans blows a Japanese zero out of the sky. sigh. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Sublime

[umlaut]

@Sublime

Didn’t know you mexicans were so fond of Hollywood - and were you even in the war? 

But yes, Eastwoods movies were great, and so were the BOB and The Pacific. 

[Warts 'n' all]

1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Waterloo was mainly won by Prussian/German and Dutch-Belgian troops. Most of Wellington's army was formed by Dutch-Belgians and Germans. Hence my Blücher-profile. History is not only not fair, it's also a bloody liar.

Spot on. And sadly, they tend to get either totally ignored, or lied about by British historians.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Warts 'n' all

[danfrodo]

Aragorn 2002: "When I joined this forum, someone already had chosen the name Blücher. And since I'm a huge LOTR fan, my second choice was Aragorn. "

You have heard that Amazon is making new series set in the LOTR world?  Rumor mill says it will be focused on Aragorn's adventures during his years as Strider.

[Aragorn2002]

3 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

Aragorn 2002: "When I joined this forum, someone already had chosen the name Blücher. And since I'm a huge LOTR fan, my second choice was Aragorn. "

You have heard that Amazon is making new series set in the LOTR world?  Rumor mill says it will be focused on Aragorn's adventures during his years as Strider.

Danfrodo. I knew there are plans for a LOTR series, but I didn't know it will be focused around Aragorn. Personally I'm worried by that news. Hopefully it's not going to be another Game of Thrones and will they stay as close to Tolkien's books as possible. Where did you read that?

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, umlaut said:

I find that the german ones are usually the best

On the whole the Germans have produced some of the most interesting "realistic" TV series and movies that are much better than Hwd re showing the human suffering and cost of the war and what it did to people's moral and cultural psyches (whatever that means... I was just rambling by the end of that sentence cos it read so well & when I worked in Hwd I quickly learned to not let reality get in the way of a good story or sentence).

Edited June 16, 2018 by Erwin

[Aragorn2002]

24 minutes ago, Erwin said:

On the whole the Germans have produced some of the most interesting "realistic" TV series and movies that are much better than Hwd re showing the human suffering and cost of the war and what it did to people's moral and cultural psyches (whatever that means... I was just rambling by the end of that sentence cos it read so well & when I worked in Hwd I quickly learned to not let reality get in the way of a good story or sentence).

[Aragorn2002]

War is dirty rotten business. My wife's from Afghanistan and she experienced it first hand. Saw her schoolmates hanging in the trees in pieces after an unexpected artillery barrage. She thinks people like me (like us) who are interested in war, are completely bonkers and she's right. But by God, it's an addiction hard to get rid of.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Aragorn2002

[Erwin]

Speaking about addictions, methinks people who are interested in hitting, kicking and throwing innocent balls (who never hurt anyone) are completely bonkers as well.

[danfrodo]

4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Danfrodo. I knew there are plans for a LOTR series, but I didn't know it will be focused around Aragorn. Personally I'm worried by that news. Hopefully it's not going to be another Game of Thrones and will they stay as close to Tolkien's books as possible. Where did you read that?

Note the article says "this is just a rumor".  so of course I spread the aforementioned rumor.  Stating it as a rumor.  But still just spreading rumors.

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2018/5/17/17364734/aragorn-lord-of-the-rings-amazon-series

 

[Badger73]

8 hours ago, Sublime said:

U571 literally and Im American disgusted me and I didnt even sit through it. I didnt watch red tails because in the new( not rlly) post modern pc society everyone knows the entire US military was racist and the red tails were the best fighter unit anywhere ever because the color of their skin.

<snipped>

Not quite.  I opine that the 332nd Fighter Group ranks as the best WW2 fighter unit anywhere because they trained as a squadron for three (count 'em, 3) whole years on four (4) different fighter aircraft before being committed to combat.  With that much individual flight experience and unit training they'd better be good, and they were.  Compare their performance against the under-trained late war Luftwaffe and Japanese pilots and its easy to see why training profoundly matters.  Racism kept the Tuskegee Airmen out of battle until Air Corps leadership concluded, "Needs must when the Devil drives."  The movie "Red Tails" is over the top Hollywood pap.  The reality is that early 20th Century America was institutionally racist despite which the Red Tails were very good indeed.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Badger73

[Dynaman216]

HBO also had a movie about the Tuskegee airmen.  Much lower budget so the air combat is not as big a draw but the non-flying portions are more interesting.  

[Warts 'n' all]

48 minutes ago, Badger73 said:

Not quite.  I opine that the 332nd Fighter Group ranks as the best WW2 fighter unit anywhere because they trained as a squadron for three (count 'em, 3) whole years on four (4) different fighter aircraft before being committed to combat.  With that much individual flight experience and unit training they'd better be good, and they were.  Compare their performance against the under-trained late war Luftwaffe and Japanese pilots and its easy to see why training profoundly matters.  Racism kept the Tuskegee Airmen out of battle until Air Corps leadership concluded, "Needs must when the Devil drives."  The movie "Red Tails" is over the top Hollywood pap.  The reality is that early 20th Century America was institutionally racist despite which the Red Tails were very good indeed.

Agreed. And what the hell is a "post modern pc society" as "sublime" calls it? Perhaps it's a branch of PC World that stays open longer than normal.

[DerKommissar]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:40 PM, Erwin said:

Speaking about addictions, methinks people who are interested in hitting, kicking and throwing innocent balls (who never hurt anyone) are completely bonkers as well.

Combat Mission: FIFA confirmed?

Why do I feel there are at least 5 Der Untergang parodies about the Germany/Mexico game, already?

Also, does anyone remember the Micheal Bay Pearl Harbour movie?

Edited June 18, 2018 by DerKommissar

[Sublime]

On 6/16/2018 at 10:27 AM, umlaut said:

@Sublime

Didn’t know you mexicans were so fond of Hollywood - and were you even in the war? 

But yes, Eastwoods movies were great, and so were the BOB and The Pacific. 

All true cholos love hollywood - theyre a great purchaser of one of our great national exports - illicit drugs

[Sublime]

On 6/16/2018 at 5:37 PM, Warts 'n' all said:

Agreed. And what the hell is a "post modern pc society" as "sublime" calls it? Perhaps it's a branch of PC World that stays open longer than normal.

post modern pc society is basically what I define as living in America society now

ultra political correctness... in a post modern society.

what exactly does "warts n all" not get ? Or is it just disagreement

[Sublime]

On 6/16/2018 at 4:45 PM, Badger73 said:

Not quite.  I opine that the 332nd Fighter Group ranks as the best WW2 fighter unit anywhere because they trained as a squadron for three (count 'em, 3) whole years on four (4) different fighter aircraft before being committed to combat.  With that much individual flight experience and unit training they'd better be good, and they were.  Compare their performance against the under-trained late war Luftwaffe and Japanese pilots and its easy to see why training profoundly matters.  Racism kept the Tuskegee Airmen out of battle until Air Corps leadership concluded, "Needs must when the Devil drives."  The movie "Red Tails" is over the top Hollywood pap.  The reality is that early 20th Century America was institutionally racist despite which the Red Tails were very good indeed.

Oh theres no doubt their squadron records prove they were proficient.  Possibly even crack or elite.

Best fighter squadron anywhere at the time? Disagree. For one all that time training is good, but does that make them better than say a squadron from the 4th FG that had been in Europe actually killing Nazis during the same period? 

Would I place them above in skill level to some of the expertern German units or even say JG26? Obviously if you narrow it to the very last 9 months Germany was in the war the comparison is skewed.

For one how do we define what the best fighter squadron is or was? For 2 if we.re going to compare we need to compare both at their best so red tails after a few combat missions for experience in Europe. Vs every other squadron in the entire war during their best time when they had the most training and had been blooded. When looked at like that I think its a bit much to name them.the best fighter squadron anywhere.

 

If your argument is because they achieved this despite conditions in America... Well yes its impressive. 

Of course the Poles had the highest scoring Battle of Britain squadron and theyd lost their homeland, had their military butchered, and most likely were never going home unless they wanted to be shot on arrival. Id say theyd been through a lot of suffering and would continue to suffer...

Still though is the fact that political correctness etc leads to grave errors or fallacies. Saw a crappy film on WW2 the otherday that sadly didnt do their homework enough to even realize the GIs werent integrated as combat units until 1947. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Sublime