A plea for a French Army DLC

[DerKommissar]

Speaking of French units in CM. Are there any Free French planned for the CMFI expansion? They also fought in Normandy.

I was reading up on Operation Torch and decided that France is underrepresented in WW2 games.

[LongLeftFlank]

Before CMBS was released, I found myself imagining a backstory where French and American forces find themselves shooting at each other, while pretending not to. (I am not playing politics here, apologies in advance to anyone this may offend)  

1.  East Ukraine escalates to full scale  Yugoslavia style ethnic cleansing and massacres, triggering savage retaliation against Russian minorities in Western Ukraine (Odessa, Transnistria and Dnepr basin).

2.  As gruesome footage of atrocities goes viral on #24houroutragemedia, NATO is split north-south on intervention. To head off outright  Russian invasion of tottering West Ukraine and possible WW3, a large UN peacekeeping force is deployed, led by the French (who angrily vetoed NATO intervention and threatened to pull out, thus seen as neutral). They deploy AdT armoured divisions, Etranger plus some  third country forces (Africans, Pakistanis, Nepalese etc.), but it's basically a French-run show.

3. The atrocities can't be stopped of course.  Russia effectively annexes East Ukraine. VDV paras in civvies predictably start showing up in Russian self-defense militias west of the Dnepr.

4. Ukrainian militias, beefed up by angry refugees, regard the French/UN as Russian proxies (plus #fakewellmostlyfakenews of African mercenary rapists on the loose etc.), and begin attacking them and their vulnerable supply lines. In spite of the French commander's best efforts to make 'practical' arrangements with militias on both sides, UN forces, especially around Dnepropetrovsk, find themselves increasingly dependent on logistical support from the east.... 

5.  As the Ukrainian government collapses into a swamp of ultranationalism and regional strongmen, an Anglo-US force of paras and Marines (no heavy tanks or tracks  permitted and drone air support only) arrives in restive Odessa. Their urgent but vague NATO mandate: to tamp down the violence and restore order by any means possible.

6. "And here we go again," sighs the American commander, veteran of 5 fruitless Mideast wars, as he watches black smoke billow from some new flashpoint in the Odessa suburbs.

Again, really *no* intent to get political here, and very glad things didn't go this way (yet). Just a what-if CM gaming scenario where you get a vicious Hobbesian furball of all against all, no clear good guys, and Uncle Sam doesn't have the biggest guns for once.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Sounds a damned good scenario. 

Scarily plausible too, chaos is rarely an intent, more often an outcome.

18 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

and Uncle Sam doesn't have the biggest guns for once.

This, I suspect, would be an insurmountable issue for some hereabouts. 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

Thinking back to stories from Lebanon and Somalia where US forces found themselves sorely tempted to open fire on Israelis and later Italians and Pakistanis. Plenty of blame on both sides of course.... 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Despite what certain parties might have you believe, things are rarely 'Black & White' eh? 

I did briefly consider doing a Pristina Airport scenario for CM:SF.....With someone other than General Sir Michael Jackson in charge:

Quote

Jackson refused to enforce Clark's orders, reportedly telling him "I'm not going to start the Third World War for you."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport

Edited April 7, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Before CMBS was released, I found myself imagining a backstory where French and American forces find themselves shooting at each other ... Hobbesian furball of all against all, no clear good guys, and Uncle Sam doesn't have the biggest guns for once.

 

Am thinking that the concepts being worked on by MOS for his TOC scenario may be perfect for this.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Despite what certain parties might have you believe, things are rarely 'Black & White' eh? 

I did briefly consider doing a Pristina Airport scenario for CM:SF.....With someone other than General Sir Michael Jackson in charge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport

Maybe it was something like that scenario which starts off our hypothetical war in Ukraine. Well it is either that or the Camlan Scenario (accidental clash between advancing Russian forces and US/NATO units ordered into Ukraine with orders to reach the River Dnieper before rage Russians get there. Somebody shoots. - who it was depends on who fires first in the game.

A scenario based on the concept of the opening clash in Hackett's Third World War when US Marines and airborne troops are deployed to Yugoslavia. Since we don't have US Marines it would have to be airborne units. Perhaps reinforced later by a US Stryker unit and/or Ukrainian units marching to the sound of the guns. You could even do a campaign depicting an escalating series of engagements over the next few hours or days.

As you suggest the opening engagement could take place in the vicinity of an airport.

[LongLeftFlank]

For those interested, here's a 213 slide  Ukraine public opinion poll, recent vintage. http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2018-3-22_ukraine_poll.pdf

For CM purposes, this is mostly useful to ID oblasts containing lots of respondents who strongly dislike the President and army/NG. Not all lie east of the Dnepr either. As I suspected, Odessa is quite divided. Not hopeful stuff here, although hardly out of line with the public mood today in other countries. (Again, I've never set foot there and am not taking sides. Paging @Bigduke6, white courtesy phone).

[Combatintman]

10 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Before CMBS was released, I found myself imagining a backstory where French and American forces find themselves shooting at each other, while pretending not to. (I am not playing politics here, apologies in advance to anyone this may offend)  

1.  East Ukraine escalates to full scale  Yugoslavia style ethnic cleansing and massacres, triggering savage retaliation against Russian minorities in Western Ukraine (Odessa, Transnistria and Dnepr basin).

2.  As gruesome footage of atrocities goes viral on #24houroutragemedia, NATO is split north-south on intervention. To head off outright  Russian invasion of tottering West Ukraine and possible WW3, a large UN peacekeeping force is deployed, led by the French (who angrily vetoed NATO intervention and threatened to pull out, thus seen as neutral). They deploy AdT armoured divisions, Etranger plus some  third country forces (Africans, Pakistanis, Nepalese etc.), but it's basically a French-run show.

3. The atrocities can't be stopped of course.  Russia effectively annexes East Ukraine. VDV paras in civvies predictably start showing up in Russian self-defense militias west of the Dnepr.

4. Ukrainian militias, beefed up by angry refugees, regard the French/UN as Russian proxies (plus #fakewellmostlyfakenews of African mercenary rapists on the loose etc.), and begin attacking them and their vulnerable supply lines. In spite of the French commander's best efforts to make 'practical' arrangements with militias on both sides, UN forces, especially around Dnepropetrovsk, find themselves increasingly dependent on logistical support from the east.... 

5.  As the Ukrainian government collapses into a swamp of ultranationalism and regional strongmen, an Anglo-US force of paras and Marines (no heavy tanks or tracks  permitted and drone air support only) arrives in restive Odessa. Their urgent but vague NATO mandate: to tamp down the violence and restore order by any means possible.

6. "And here we go again," sighs the American commander, veteran of 5 fruitless Mideast wars, as he watches black smoke billow from some new flashpoint in the Odessa suburbs.

Again, really *no* intent to get political here, and very glad things didn't go this way (yet). Just a what-if CM gaming scenario where you get a vicious Hobbesian furball of all against all, no clear good guys, and Uncle Sam doesn't have the biggest guns for once.

 

Chapter VI, Chapter VII or Chapter 6.5 operation? What is the mandate for UNFUK (United Nations Force in the Ukraine). Would a pre-emptive UN deployment to head off a Russian invasion be achievable? It is certainly doable under Article 42 but Russia is a member of UNSC so it is unlikely that it will sign up to it.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Combatintman

[LongLeftFlank]

+1000 upvote for UNFUK!

I dunno, just intrigued by the idea of (digital) Yanks and Brits in TOW humvees and MRAPs, supported by some Ukrainian rattletrap tanks exchanging blows with French MBTs, plus Russian desantniki in civvies. While the US President tries to noodle out whether to allow the requested Predator strikes on the descendants of Lafayette.... 

The film "Siege of Jadotville" gets into some of this 'peacekeeping gone sideways' stuff btw. Dag Hammarskjöld especially comes off as a real wänkr, along with the Irish command and DeGaulle (but at least we expect that of him).

Edited April 7, 2018 by LongLeftFlank

[Combatintman]

1 minute ago, LongLeftFlank said:

+1000 upvote for UNFUK!

I don't disagree there mate - I think all UN missions should be called that because ultimately that is their job

[c3k]

1. French DLC gets my vote. For whatever it's worth.

2. UNFUK also gets my vote. Because somewhere, someone will do it.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'd sign up for UNFUK, all we need is a few more units to play with. 

[FoxZz]

On 07/04/2018 at 4:13 AM, LongLeftFlank said:

Before CMBS was released, I found myself imagining a backstory where French and American forces find themselves shooting at each other, while pretending not to. (I am not playing politics here, apologies in advance to anyone this may offend)  

1.  East Ukraine escalates to full scale  Yugoslavia style ethnic cleansing and massacres, triggering savage retaliation against Russian minorities in Western Ukraine (Odessa, Transnistria and Dnepr basin).

2.  As gruesome footage of atrocities goes viral on #24houroutragemedia, NATO is split north-south on intervention. To head off outright  Russian invasion of tottering West Ukraine and possible WW3, a large UN peacekeeping force is deployed, led by the French (who angrily vetoed NATO intervention and threatened to pull out, thus seen as neutral). They deploy AdT armoured divisions, Etranger plus some  third country forces (Africans, Pakistanis, Nepalese etc.), but it's basically a French-run show.

3. The atrocities can't be stopped of course.  Russia effectively annexes East Ukraine. VDV paras in civvies predictably start showing up in Russian self-defense militias west of the Dnepr.

4. Ukrainian militias, beefed up by angry refugees, regard the French/UN as Russian proxies (plus #fakewellmostlyfakenews of African mercenary rapists on the loose etc.), and begin attacking them and their vulnerable supply lines. In spite of the French commander's best efforts to make 'practical' arrangements with militias on both sides, UN forces, especially around Dnepropetrovsk, find themselves increasingly dependent on logistical support from the east.... 

5.  As the Ukrainian government collapses into a swamp of ultranationalism and regional strongmen, an Anglo-US force of paras and Marines (no heavy tanks or tracks  permitted and drone air support only) arrives in restive Odessa. Their urgent but vague NATO mandate: to tamp down the violence and restore order by any means possible.

6. "And here we go again," sighs the American commander, veteran of 5 fruitless Mideast wars, as he watches black smoke billow from some new flashpoint in the Odessa suburbs.

Again, really *no* intent to get political here, and very glad things didn't go this way (yet). Just a what-if CM gaming scenario where you get a vicious Hobbesian furball of all against all, no clear good guys, and Uncle Sam doesn't have the biggest guns for once.

 

I think Russians would veto any UN intervention and directly invade Ukraine themselves. And it would be difficult to oppose them considering you're describing a failed neo-nazi Ukrainian state and massacre of Russian minorities. Supporting the western regime would actually be a crime against humanity and nobody would risk it in the west.

The West would face a situation very similar to the situation the French faced in Rwanda. An ally governement (Habiarimana/Perrechenko) is facing a rebellion supported from abroad which is ethnically different and with another language (Tutsi RPR supported from Uganda and English speaking/ Dombass separatists, from Russian minorities, speaking Russian and supported by Russia). Things go wild  and a genocide starts, organised by your ally against the opposing ethinic minority (Hutu kill Tutski/Ukrainian kill Russian minorities). You want to support your ally but also stop the genocide. This inconfortable position only brings you international condamnations.

So in this example, either Nato gets involved and will be accused of complicity of Genocide (exactly what happened to the French in Rwanda) or you get out of it and you let your ally bite the dust, which will eventually happend anyway, since he's on the wrong side of the argument and that the other side is supported by Russia.

But in your example, I really don't see why the French would have to fight the US. It's possible that they disagree with a NATO intervention beacause they learned their lessons in Rwanda, in that case, if the US still wants to go, Frannce would just not go, as it did in Irak in 2003. And if they decide to get involved, they would share the same objective as the US : preventing genocide, avoiding Russian take-over. But the hypothesis of France and US fighting (for what reason really ?) each other is very much unrealistic, as is the an UN peacekeeping force anyway.

That being said, tensions between peace-keerpers and "allied nations" do occur. In 2008 in Lebanon, Israeli air force killed several European blue helmet, and French peace-keapers and Isreali almost fought at 2 occasion. One was attacking-behaviour by Israeli F15s on French bases that almost prompted a Mistral fire, another one was when israeli attempted to breach the ceased Fire line with a several hours stand-off between Leclercs and Merkavas. But this was a completly different situation. A nation attacking UN peace-keepers in a direct confrontation would meet international outcry anyway.

 

 

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, this is of course all highly unlikely, for reasons you and C-IMan properly note.

Tu comprende, copains, I am in "Twilight 2000" apocalyptic fiction gaming space here, seeking plausible casi belli for BLUEFORs to find themselves on opposite sides, and Uncle Sam badly outgunned for once.

That has not happened to a US mechanized force since when?  Task Force Rose? (my Korean War history is squishy).

I also draw parallels to Operation Castor 1953, where Navarre's strategy of a forward deployment into the Tai highlands at Dien Bien Phu to draw out and then crush 2 Vietminh divisions made perfect, even brilliant, strategic sense, up to the moment when its core assumption of Western fire superiority proved false. So too here, the AdT intervenes to restore the peace and prevent the Anglo-saxonnes making a hash of it yet again, but find themselves unwillingly drawn to pick sides. Quelle irony!  

Naturellement, we could say simply fight a QB and dispense with the convoluted backstory altogether, but I personally like my fiction to cohere within boundaries it has set for itself, as a mirror aux realite.

Just jawing here, y'all....

[Sgt.Squarehead]

It's great stuff, alternate backgrounds are something I've been looking at as you know, yours is one of the most coherent I've seen.....If this concept were set up in a similar fashion to @MOS:96B2P 'Tactical Operations Centre' the French could be scripted only to react to the most extreme provocation by the player (or the US on the opposing side), thus leaving it in the player's hands as to whether it's best to destroy NATO or not. 

All this assuming we had some French units of course. 

[MOS:96B2P]

I guess you could do early NATO set in the 1950s after CMFI Rome to Victory is out.  I think that is rumored to have French.  I know ............. probably not what you're looking for.......... 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Not sure the French military of the 50s would have been all that intimidating. 

[DerKommissar]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not sure the French military of the 50s would have been all that intimidating. 

I beg to differ:

A 60s French military would rock, but we need a 60s CM first. I'm glad they're adding FF to FI, and hope they add them to Normandy (xD).

[Combatintman]

11 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not sure the French military of the 50s would have been all that intimidating. 

I beg to differ.

While there were a lot of failures, there were some pretty swept up French operations/actions in Indochina if you get past the Dien Bien Phu and GM-100 stories which dominate popular imagination of that conflict.

Then of course there is the Algerian conflict which the French military is widely recognised to have fought the FLN to brink of collapse.

Elements of the French Army deployed on Musketeer were recognised by the British participants to be far better equipped and far more experienced than many of their British equivalents for that type of operation.

[FoxZz]

For those interested, the first prototypes for the replacement of the old AMX10 RCs, ERC90 Sagaies and VAB HOT are out !

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/france-jaguar-unveiled-ahead-of-eurosatory-exhibition

Edited May 17, 2018 by FoxZz

[Kinophile]

What the blue **** is that. 

[FoxZz]

On 21/05/2018 at 6:43 AM, kinophile said:

What the blue **** is that. 

It's a wheeled Combat and Recon vehicle, it will equip the cavalry regiment from the medium brigades, while the cavalry regiment from the heavy brigades will have their Leclerc tanks modernised. It's main armament is the CTA40 cannon, which is basically an improved 40mm in a 25mm package, and it is also equiped with the new 5th gen MMP atgm to deal with heavy armour. It's the equivalent of the British Ajax (which shares the same gun), the Australian Boxer CRV, the USMC LAV-25 or the new army Stryker Dragoon. Although it has a classic tank design, with engine in the back, instead of an IFV conversion. It allows it to be lighter and lower. Although France will lose its wheeled platform with high caliber guns, the autocannon + atgm + automated 120mm combo should make up for it (MEPAC mortar : http://www.tda-armements.com/content/mo-120-mm-2r2m). Base all around protection is STANAG 4, and it can recieve additional armour packages, RPG kits, hard-kill kits. The crew is protected within a survival cell, which is even more protected and mobility elements also received additional protection. So unless it is hit by a full caliber sabot, crew should survive and be able to bring back the vehicle. It also has avery high anti-mine protection and high mobility. 300 are ordered and deliveries should be completed by 2030.

Here is an in depth review video, although in Frenchn you can but translated subtitles. Keep in mind it's only the first prototype, designed will be refined with trials before it enters full production.

It's the replacement of the old AMX10RCs, ERC90s, and VAB HOT : http://www.janes.com/article/80133/jaguar-prototype-unveiled

It is part of the French Scorpion program, which aims at modernising the French battlegroups, especially their vehicles. It is similar to the British FRES/Strike program.

It includes the replacement of the old VAB, the wheeled tanks and the modernisation of the Leclerc tank.

Here is the replacement of the VAB, without its appliqué armour kit :

http://www.armyrecognition.com/french_army_france_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/griffon_vbmr_6x6_multi-role_armoured_vehicle_ebmr_scorpion_technical_data_sheet_specifications.html

And here is the 4x4 version :

http://defense-update.com/20180212_vbmr-l.html

Those vehicles will be in multiple versions, Mortar version (MEPAC), Ambulance, Artillery, etc.

Scorpion also includes the Felin infantry program and last but not least the CONTACT radio, which is a new radio software that will equip all the armed forces from tanks and infanry to helicopters and planes, it will allow all those elements to communicate directly together in a "numeric battlefield", it is currently being fielded. It also includes the new service rifles for French troops, the HK-416F, and a new ATGM replacing Milan and HOT, the MMP.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/france_french_army_light_and_heavy_weapons_uk/mmp_mbda_medium_range_anti-tank_surface-to-surface_missile_data.html

https://sofrep.com/65812/hk416-new-rifle-french-armed-forces/

Basically in the 2025, French medium brigades will be mainly made of the Jaguar Recon vehicle, the Griffon 6x6 and 4x4 and the CAESAR 6x6. The Heavy Brigades will have Modernised Leclerc MBTs, VBCI 8x8, and the CAESAR 8x8.

Hope all this answer your questions. Do you disagree or are you surprised by the design/concept ? @kinophile

Edited May 22, 2018 by FoxZz

[DerKommissar]

I've always been a fan of french armoured cars. Armoured cars have been around longer than tanks, and it's good to see them evolving. It is also good to see the French army evolving.

My thoughts on the Jaguar:

- Level 4 protection is pretty good for such a vehicle.

- Optics and observation equipment looks stunning.

- 40mm seems to be the future.

- A remote MG for the commander!

- NBC systems are not forgotten!

- Internal missile storage is good, I am guessing they are reloaded from the inside? Hopefully they are easy to reload.

- It's REALLY tall, taller than the AMX or ERC. As a recon vehicle, it may be easier to spot and hit.

- It's very heavy. 25 tons is almost twice of all the previous ones. Lighter cars can better cross bridges and potentially off-road.

It's a jack of all trades. Standardization is great, and the main benefit of this vehicle. Yet, it doesn't master any of the roles it's replacing. VAB HOT has more missiles and AMX and ERC carry more potent guns. All that being said, I think they're on the right path. If they invest in modularity of this vehicle, it can fill those distinct roles better.

[Kinophile]

At first I thought it was Photoshopped, honestly :). 

But you've explained very clearly and succinctly, thank you! Appreciated. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by kinophile