Jäger Division

[Mord]

Does CM2 portray Jäger Division infantry type units or have they not been added? I see selections for Panzerjäger battalion under German Army: Infantry, but wasn't sure how you'd portray the infantry part of the formation. For instance the 114th Jäger Division's OOB looks like this:

• Jäger Regiment 721
• Jäger Regiment 741
• Reconnaissance Battalion 114
• Artillery Regiment 661
• Pionier Battalion 114
• Panzerjäger Battalion 114
• Signals Battalion 114
• Reserve Battalion 114
• Supply detachment 114

What formation would you use to represent a piece of say the 721st Regiment; elements from a normal Grenadier Battalion? Pioneer, Panzerjäger, and Supply all have obvious choices in the editor.

 

Mord.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mord

[akd]

Not yet, but on paper the Jäger Battalion it is very similar to the Gebirgsjäger Battalion.  Other divisional units are the same as Gebirgsjäger or regular infantry divisions.  No connection to Panzerjäger units, which is a term used for all tank destroyer formations (but the Panzerjäger battalion in a Jäger or Gebirgsjäger division was the same as that in a regular infantry division).

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by akd

[akd]

JÄGER REGIMENT

Jäger Battalion (Feb 44  - end)

                Battalion HQ  KStN 111a Stb.Jg.Btl. (December 1, 1943) – organized same as Grenadier Battalion HQ 

                3x Jäger Company  KStN 131a Jg. Kp. (December 1, 1943) modified for small arms allocation

                                Company HQ – 1x Officer (MP40), 2x NCO (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 3x men (rifle or MP40)

                                3x Jäger Platoon

      Platoon HQ – 1x Officer (NCO for 2. And 3. Platoon) (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 2x men (rifle or MP40)

                                    3x Jäger Squad - 1x NCO (MP40), 1x gunner (LMG 34/42), 2x men (self-loading rifle or rifle), 1x man (scoped rifle or rifle), 1x man (grenade launcher), 4x men (rifle or MP40)

          Panzerschreck Team (from Regimental Panzerjäger Company) – 1x man (Panzerschreck), 1x man (rifle or MP40, panzerschreck ammo)

     Jäger M.G. Company  KStN 151 M.G.Kp.Jg.Btl. (December 1, 1943) modified for small arms allocation

                                Company HQ – 1x Officer (MP40), 1x NCO (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 2x men (rifle or MP40)

                                3x Heavy Machine Gun Platoon

          Platoon HQ – 1x Officer (NCO in 3. Platoon) (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 3x men (rifle or MP40)

          2x Heavy Machine Gun Sections

       Section HQ Team - 1x NCO section ldr (MP40), 1x NCO (MP40), 1 x gunner (HMG 34/42), 1x man/loader (pistol), 3x men (rifle or MP40)

       Heavy Machine Gun Team – 1x NCO ldr (MP40), 1 x gunner (HMG 34/42), 1x man/loader (pistol), 3x men (rifle or MP40)

                                                       2x Ammo Bearer Team – 2x men (2x rifle or MP40, MG ammo)

                Jäger Heavy Company  KStN 155a s.Kp.Jg.Btl (December 1, 1943) modified for small arms allocation

                                Company HQ – 1x Officer (MP40), 1x NCO (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 2x men (rifle or MP40), 2x men (rifle)

                                Infantry Gun Platoon

                Platoon HQ – 1x Officer (MP40), 1x NCO (pistol), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 1x man (pistol)

                1x LMG Team – 1x gunner (LMG 34/42), 1x man (rifle, MG ammo)

      2x Gebirgs IG Team – 1x NCO ldr (MP40), 3x men (rifles), 1x 7.5 cm Gebirgs le.IG 18 / le. IG 18 / le. IG 37), 1x Kettenrad (Kettenrads are used extensively throughout Gebirgs TO&E, but I’ve only listed them here, as they are directly called for as the towing vehicle.  Not sure what to substitute.  Maybe just Kubelwagen?)

          4x Ammo Bearer Team – 2x men (rifles, 7.5cm IG ammo)

                                Medium Mortar Platoon

                                               Platoon HQ - 1x Officer (MP40), 1x man (rifle or MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 1x man (pistol)

                                               3x 8cm Mortar Section –

                   Section HQ – 1x NCO ldr (MP40), 1x NCO (pistol), 1x NCO (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 2x men (rifle or MP40)

                   2x 8cm Mortar Team – 5x men (1x MP40, 2x rifle, 2x pistol, radio, 1x 8cm mortar)

                   2x Ammo Bearer Team – 2x men (2x rifles, mortar ammo)

                                Heavy Mortar Platoon

          Platoon HQ – 1x Officer (MP40), 1x NCO (pistol), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 1x man (pistol), 1x Kubelwagen + driver (pistol)

                                              4x 12cm mortar [off-map]

 

Regimental Pioneer Company (Feb 44  - end) - KStN 189 Inf.Pi.Ko.Jg.Rgt (December 1, 1943) modified for small arms allocation

                  Company HQ - 1x Officer (NCO in 3. Platoon)(MP40), 1x NCO (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 1x man (rifle or MP40), 1x Kubelwagen + driver (rifle)

                                3x Pioneer Platoon -          

                                               Platoon HQ – 1x Officer (NCO in 3. Platoon) (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 1x man (rifle or MP40), 1x Kubelwagen + driver (rifle)

           3x Pioneer Squads – 1x NCO (MP40), 1x gunner (LMG 34/42), 1x pioneer (self-loading rifle or rifle), 7x pioneer (rifle or MP40)

[Mord]

7 minutes ago, akd said:

Platoon HQ – 1x Officer (NCO for 2. And 3. Platoon) (MP40), 1x radioman (rifle or MP40), 2x men (rifle or MP40)

                                    3x Jäger Squad - 1x NCO (MP40), 1x gunner (LMG 34/42), 2x men (self-loading rifle or rifle), 1x man (scoped rifle or rifle), 1x man (grenade launcher), 4x men (rifle or MP40)

          Panzerschreck Team (from Regimental Panzerjäger Company) – 1x man (Panzerschreck), 1x man (rifle or MP40, panzerschreck ammo)

     Jäger M.G. Company  KStN 151 M.G.Kp.Jg.Btl. (December 1, 1943) modified for small arms allocation

That's the part I was most interested in. I got curious while I was researching for my portrait mod.

I am guessing as obsessive (in a good way) as Steve is, we'll see an actual Jäger formation? I'd expect in the new FI module as the 114th was in Italy. Not to mention, if they ever make partisans for RT, gonna need some hunters to take them down.

BTW Any idea what a Lei Division is? Google translate is screwing me on that one!

Thanks, man!

 

Mord.

[Mord]

Didn't catch this part:

2 hours ago, akd said:

(but the Panzerjäger battalion in a Jäger or Gebirgsjäger division was the same as that in a regular infantry division).

Yeah, the Panzerjäger battalion I was referring to was from the Heer infantry, it only has towed guns for AT capabilities. That's what got me wondering about the infantry.

 

Mord.

[Warts 'n' all]

Lei. is short for Leicht (or Light). The only lei division I can find doing a quick google is the 5th who were part of the Afrika Corps in '41. And it later became the 21st Panzer Division.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Warts 'n' all

[Mord]

Thanks, man. I've Light Divisions but never connected the "lei" part and "light". I see that they ended up becoming Pz Divisions later on.

 

Mord.

[Warts 'n' all]

Just as an aside. The Germans used lei. for the light divisions, but le. for light guns. I suppose some bloke came into work on a Monday morning after spending the whole weekend on the Berliner Kindl Weisse, and thought, "Oh, I just can't be bothered with the "i" this morning.

[Rinaldi]

3 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Lei. is short for Leicht (or Light). The only lei division I can find doing a quick google is the 5th who were part of the Afrika Corps in '41. And it later became the 21st Panzer Division.

Yeah there were a few more but they quickly fell by the wayside for the Germans. They were too light and too independent to get anything done; and were in reality over-grown mechanized regiments. 

@akd I'm really surprised to see a Jaeger TO&E as late as Feburary 44. I thought that all infantry divisions had the honorific Grenadier (or Volksgrenadier later on) save for "specialist" divisions. It's so rare to hear mention of them in histories after Stalingrad.

[Warts 'n' all]

40 minutes ago, Rinaldi said:

Yeah there were a few more but they quickly fell by the wayside for the Germans. They were too light and too independent to get anything done; and were in reality over-grown mechanized regiments.

Yes, you're spot on. I found the others a bit later.

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, Rinaldi said:

Yeah there were a few more but they quickly fell by the wayside for the Germans. They were too light and too independent to get anything done; and were in reality over-grown mechanized regiments.

There were several used during the Polish campaign, but were found to be inadequate to their assigned tasks. They were basically supposed to be demi-Panzer divisions with half the number of tanks etc. By the time of the campaign against France and the Low Countries, most of them had been built up into more or less full Panzer divisions.

Michael

[akd]

8 hours ago, Mord said:

That's the part I was most interested in. I got curious while I was researching for my portrait mod.

I am guessing as obsessive (in a good way) as Steve is, we'll see an actual Jäger formation? I'd expect in the new FI module as the 114th was in Italy. Not to mention, if they ever make partisans for RT, gonna need some hunters to take them down.

BTW Any idea what a Lei Division is? Google translate is screwing me on that one!

Thanks, man!

 

Mord.

 

I put the above together for Steve for CMFI (the dates and small arms allocations noted are particular to that theater), but it looks like Jäger TO&E will be deferred to RT module (there were more Jäger divisions in the East).

2 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

 

@akd I'm really surprised to see a Jaeger TO&E as late as Feburary 44. I thought that all infantry divisions had the honorific Grenadier (or Volksgrenadier later on) save for "specialist" divisions. It's so rare to hear mention of them in histories after Stalingrad.

Jäger divisions were present in Italy and on the East Front right through the end.  Note that, IIRC, there were some Jäger battalions / regiments in some Infantry divisions, but I believe these were honorific titles related to unit lineage.  Not sure if these switched to Grenadier later on.

Jäger divisions, however, did have a specialist function, essentially the same as the Gebirgs Division, but without specific training or equipment for mountaineering.  Like the Gebirgs, their support elements (especially artillery) were lighter than a standard Infantry division, making them more suited for operations in rough or less accessible terrain.  They also shared the green waffenfarbe with Gebirgs units.

[Ts4EVER]

Are you sure about the MP40 allocation? I am asking because German kstns usually only mention "Maschinenpistole" and starting in 1944 that usually means MP43s, especially when used en masse by infantry. Only in the later toe's did they rename this to "Sturmgewehr". If you look at these pictures from February 1944, showing members of a Skijäger unit (which might have used that same light infantry toe), you will notice that they use MP43s in considerable numbers:

I have never heard of a single case where the Germans wanted to issue massed 9mm smgs, it was always about the new assault rifle concept. MP40 production certainly never increased to accommodate this, in fact, they got replaced in production by the MP43 and later in the war the Germans bought additional Beretta smgs instead of making more MP40s. This is also a problem I have with the Gebirgsjäger TOE in Final Blitzkrieg: In my opinion the amount of MP40s is unrealistic, these were meant to be StG44s at this point. Now, would they have enough StGs? Probably not, but they certainly wouldn't have enough MP40s to make good the shortfall.

[akd]

Skijager

On 12/7/2017 at 10:01 AM, Ts4EVER said:

Are you sure about the MP40 allocation? I am asking because German kstns usually only mention "Maschinenpistole" and starting in 1944 that usually means MP43s, especially when used en masse by infantry. Only in the later toe's did they rename this to "Sturmgewehr". If you look at these pictures from February 1944, showing members of a Skijäger unit (which might have used that same light infantry toe), you will notice that they use MP43s in considerable numbers:

I have never heard of a single case where the Germans wanted to issue massed 9mm smgs, it was always about the new assault rifle concept. MP40 production certainly never increased to accommodate this, in fact, they got replaced in production by the MP43 and later in the war the Germans bought additional Beretta smgs instead of making more MP40s. This is also a problem I have with the Gebirgsjäger TOE in Final Blitzkrieg: In my opinion the amount of MP40s is unrealistic, these were meant to be StG44s at this point. Now, would they have enough StGs? Probably not, but they certainly wouldn't have enough MP40s to make good the shortfall.

I'm sure that's what it was on paper for both the Jäger and Gebirgsjäger companies, and there is no evidence these units receiving large numbers of MP44 / StG44 (compared to Volksgrenadier Divisions).  That said, you are correct that they didn't have MPi in sufficient numbers to meet establishment either.  That's why I suggested for the CMFI TO&E that wherever an MPi is called for in the squad aside from the squad leaders that there be a chance of a rifle instead.  However, the Skijäger Brigade / Division on the Eastern Front (pictured above) definitely received a high allocation of MP43/44s as early as February 1944, which was later codified in its own unique KStN with Sturm Zugs in January 1945.  Here is an old post by Fernando:

Quote

 

Regarding the MP44, according to the reports, on 1 February 1944, almost 10,000 MP43 had been delivered to the units in the East Front for testing purposes.

HGr. Mitte had got 3,732 MP43 (no MP44) by that date.

HGr Mitte:
HGr Units - 718

2.Armee:
SkiJägBrig 1 - 1480
KAbt E - 147

4. Armee:
31. InfDiv - 133
78 SturmDiv - 115
95. InfDiv - 35
267. InfDiv - 35
337. InfDiv - 114
25. PzGrDiv - 115

9. Armee
AOK 9 Units - 260
6.InfDiv - 20
36. InfDiv - 88
45.InfDiv - 20
296. InfDiv - 60

3. PzArmee
PzAOK 3 Units - 2
12. InfDiv - 20
14. InfDiv - 50
197. InfDiv - 10
211. InfDiv - 35
299. InfDiv - 49
5. JägDiv - 153
4. LwFeldDiv - 39
6. LwFeldDiv – 24

 

 

This explains the photos quite well.

Anyways, I have actual returns for all Jäger, Gebirgs and Skijäger divisions January - March 1945.  No division has as many MP44s as the 1. Skijäger Division, which with 1,553 exceeds the allocations made to many Volksgrenadier divisions.  The next largest allocation is around 700 for 8. Jäger Division (and oddly enough this one had zero MPi), followed by two Jäger divisions with around 450 MP44s (but a similar number of MPi also).  The rest have less than 300 MP44s and held more MPi than MP44s, some with around 1000 MPi (usually combination of MP38/40 and captured MPi).  The divisions in Italy had either zero (or in one case only a handful of) MP44s, yet some had allocations of MP40 / Italian SMG approaching 900-1000 (but still significantly below their authorized establishment).

For CMFB, if you select Excellent equipment quality before purchased the Gebirgsjäger battalion you will get a very high allocation of MP44s.   That said, while there is some evidence that the independent Gebirgsjäger battalions that fought on the West Front in late 44 had high allocations of MP44s., the 2. Gebirgs Division had no MP44s at all and about 650 MP38/40 in January 1945.  Maybe a future patch can get more rifles in the mix.

Edited January 13, 2018 by akd

[Ts4EVER]

Interesting data, thanks. So would you agree that the amount of MP40s in the Gebirgsjäger squads in FB is a bit too high?

[akd]

Yes, but not because they are instead supposed to be MP44s (which is already an option), but because there should be more rifles in the squad.

[Ts4EVER]

Yes, that is what I meant. They were "supposed" to be MP44s, but as I said in my first post:

2 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

Now, would they have enough StGs? Probably not, but they certainly wouldn't have enough MP40s to make good the shortfall.

 

[akd]

Per TO&E they weren't supposed to be MP44s.  There were supposed to be MPi.

Edited December 7, 2017 by akd

[Ts4EVER]

In earlier Kstns, MP43s were also just called MPs. In fact, before they were renamed to "Sturmzug", the units to be equipped completely with MP43s were called "MP-Zug" for a while. This is also why in many older wargames "Volksgrenadiers" were modelled with high numbers of MP40 instead of Stgs. The Germans never planned to issue 9mm SMGs en masse, however, they always planned to replace SMGs and Rifles with MP43s. The light infantry kstns were the first to receive this new organization. I doubt they actually managed to implement this, but I am reasonably sure that they always meant MP43s in those kstns, along with some others from late 1943, early 1944 (cavalry and begleit infantry for instance).

[Mord]

8 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

I'm really surprised to see a Jaeger TO&E as late as Feburary 44. I thought that all infantry divisions had the honorific Grenadier (or Volksgrenadier later on) save for "specialist" divisions. It's so rare to hear mention of them in histories after Stalingrad.

"The division was transferred to Italy in January 1944, to reinforce the Anzio front. It was destroyed in combat in that theater in April 1945."-from the Wikipedia entry for the 114th Jäger divisions. For what that's worth.

 

5 hours ago, akd said:

They also shared the green waffenfarbe with Gebirgs units.

This?

 

Mord.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mord

[Rinaldi]

No waffenfarbe are the white braids on the collars with the colorings, Mord. These are Bundeswehr waffenfarbe but it'll suffice for an example:

 

 

Think of them as being analogous to the crossed sabers, rifles or cannons, etc. of the US branches. The piping color of shoulder-boards also helped identify their branch of service. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Rinaldi

[Mord]

Gotchya! Thanks.

I was surprised when I came across that patch, in six years of researching the various German divisional symbols it's the first patch I have run into. I am guessing it is worn on the Jäger uniform sleeve, if even it's worn at all?

 

Mord.

[akd]

46 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

In earlier Kstns, MP43s were also just called MPs. In fact, before they were renamed to "Sturmzug", the units to be equipped completely with MP43s were called "MP-Zug" for a while. This is also why in many older wargames "Volksgrenadiers" were modelled with high numbers of MP40 instead of Stgs. The Germans never planned to issue 9mm SMGs en masse, however, they always planned to replace SMGs and Rifles with MP43s. The light infantry kstns were the first to receive this new organization. I doubt they actually managed to implement this, but I am reasonably sure that they always meant MP43s in those kstns, along with some others from late 1943, early 1944 (cavalry and begleit infantry for instance).

Nope, there is no evidence of this.  The MP43/MP44 wasn't issued by paper TO&E before late summer 1944, but rather by orders for specific units. Specific infantry divisions were issued MP43/MP44 in large numbers even though they were still on "standard" infantry division TO&E.  These did not replace MP40s in the TO&E, and in fact explicit orders were issued not to use MP43 / MP44 that way.   In the case of the Gebirgs and Jäger divisions, it clear they were over optimistic about issueing MPi to these units in late '43 / early '44.  Their TO&E was never updated to reflect organization specifically for MP44 / StG44 (MP-Zug or Sturm-Zug), and later (1945) returns make it clear that they had huge shortfalls of MPi (not Sturmgewehrs).

Even before the official switch to "Sturmgewehr," it is fairly clear in most TO&E whether or not a unit was intended to receive MP44s.  This can be seen in paper TO&E for Sperr divisions, Panzer Brigades and early Volksgrenadier divisions which include explicit notes on "MP. Zug" with no LMGs (which was the rationale behind MP44 issuance) and sometimes explicits notes that MP44 was to be used. Also, in many cases there are associated orders that make it clear the MPs in certain platoons in the brigade divisions were MP44s (e.g. orders issued by Guderian in connection with the formation of Panzer Brigades).

Here is a very clear example of a Kriegsgliederung showing both that they were still on the 1.3.44 TO&E, that this results in a massive shortfall of MP38/40 and that there were not MP / Sturm Zugs in the companies:

 

[Ts4EVER]

I stand corrected then, very interesting.

edit: also interesting that they had the "MP Erma", I assume this refers to the EMP35?

Edited December 7, 2017 by Ts4EVER

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, Mord said:

This?

 

Mord.

No, the Gebirgsjager used the Edelweiss as their emblem.