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Reading some of the better accounts of the Kursk campaign might well be an instructive indicator. Many of the secondary roads in Ukraine are still probably little more than dirt tracks as we have seen in much film footage of the conflict in the region. And, at the tactical level vehicles, whether armoured or tracked must come off the roads at some point. All you need then is a decent continental thunderstorm - and these things are much more intensive than most thunderstorms we have in the UK. I have personal experience of this kind of storm while on summer holldays in Switzerland. You get a great deal of rain in a short period. Historical accounts of thunderstorms in Ukraine during the summer of 1943. For instance a severe thunderstorm during the late July 1943 assault by II SS Panzer Korps during the late afternoon om the third day of the battle brought the entire assualt to a halt because the ground turned to deep mud conditions after perhaps half an hour of torrential rain in a severe thunder storm. It has been noted that similar storms took place quite frequently during the Battle of Kursk.

Our Ukranian War takes place at the same time of year/ Severe thunder sorms in Ukraine are likely in this Continental climate zone. This is not a case of Stryker hate. All wheeled vehicles on both sides would suffer similarly. And tracked vehicles almost as much - as they diid in the summer of 1943 

 

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See Mr. Burke, what you fail to understand is that if a vehicle exists, and its in the military, it has to be a tank. Its a simple concept; army vehicles go boom boom with big guns. Trying to app

If all the infantry the carrier is meant to protect are hors d'combat, it has already failed in its primary mission and everything else is a moot point. 

This part is true.  This part is not.  No to both.  Roads, off-roads, it really doesn't matter. Before the Stryker, the Army had two types of forces: very light, and very heavy. Ver

I recall an old book from decades ago, 'Mounted Combat in Vietnam'. It included a map showing what proportion of the country was a 'no-go' area for armor - It was a large chunk of the place. Later in the war the percentage that was 'no-go' had shrunk dramatically due to more capable vehicles showing up and also large scale road building to get armor into and out of problematic areas.

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20 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I recall an old book from decades ago, 'Mounted Combat in Vietnam'. It included a map showing what proportion of the country was a 'no-go' area for armor - It was a large chunk of the place. Later in the war the percentage that was 'no-go' had shrunk dramatically due to more capable vehicles showing up and also large scale road building to get armor into and out of problematic areas.

I may have had the same book, except that mine was called Armored Combat in Viet Nam. I recall two maps except that one was for tanks and the second for APCs. The latter could go almost anywhere.

Michael

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17 hours ago, DMS said:

Mass is important, not just tracks instead of wheels. 30-tonn Bradley would be stuck as well. BMPs are so light not just for amphibious capabilities!

Aye, pressure is Force / Area. Force is Mass * Acceleration due to Gravity. Less mass, and more area are the best way to prevent a track from sinking. This being said, if both mass and total track area are increased proportionately, the ground pressure would be the same. In other words, the heavier you are, the wider (and longer) tracks you need.

Calculation-of-Nominal-Ground-Pressure.p

I found a fantastic document comparing the ground pressure of various Cold War and WW2 vehicles! Here it is: Tracked Vehicle Ground Pressure. It seems Soviet vehicles, both in WW2 and after, put a heavy emphasis on reducing ground pressure. Also interesting to see that the HVSS was a significant improvement, as well as interleaved wheels on German tanks.

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6 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Aye, pressure is Force / Area.

Indeed the basics are covered there but as you can see the graphic assuming even pressure for the area under and between the bogie wheels for the track is a simplification...

6 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Also interesting to see that the HVSS was a significant improvement, as well as interleaved wheels on German tanks.

Which is why suspension and wheel size and placement matter for tracked vehicles.

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2 hours ago, IanL said:

Indeed the basics are covered there but as you can see the graphic assuming even pressure for the area under and between the bogie wheels for the track is a simplification...

Which is why suspension and wheel size and placement matter for tracked vehicles.

You are absolutely correct. This is a gross generalization. This also assumes a perfectly flat surface (let alone tread tension or wheel inflation) -- which makes the whole model moot.

Warning: do not design, manufacture or distribute AFVs based on my prior post. DerKommissar Enterprises will not be held responsible for any flawed designs.

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33 minutes ago, sburke said:

Same reasoning I use to explain to the wife why I can’t carry her.  Dear, it is a simple issue of ground pressure, well just get bogged. 

Somehow she refuses to buy into science.

LOL - my method was to hit door frames as I tried to carry her. She now refuses all offers of being carried. ;)

Edited by IanL
added smillie
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4 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Warning: do not design, manufacture or distribute AFVs based on my prior post. DerKommissar Enterprises will not be held responsible for any flawed designs.

Awesome. :D

Yeah I don't want to detract from the basic message just point out there is a bunch of other things going on.

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