BM Oplot needs its ammo choice fixed

[kraze]

Even in the latest version (2.10) BM Oplot uses ATGM exclusively to attack enemy tanks even at sub 300m distances - which makes these tanks useless (or outright easy prey in tank duels) since missiles tend to hit trees or completely miss due to a slower movement than SABOT even though the latter would almost certainly penetrate any tank at such distance. And this issue is here since the initial release. What gives? Why can't the game have Oplot use ATGM only at distances of 2km or above where it would make sense?

Weird that it does not affect russian tanks

[Stefano Z]

3 hours ago, kraze said:

Even in the latest version (2.10) BM Oplot uses ATGM exclusively to attack enemy tanks even at sub 300m distances - which makes these tanks useless (or outright easy prey in tank duels) since missiles tend to hit trees or completely miss due to a slower movement than SABOT even though the latter would almost certainly penetrate any tank at such distance. And this issue is here since the initial release. What gives? Why can't the game have Oplot use ATGM only at distances of 2km or above where it would make sense?

Weird that it does not affect russian tanks

I am playing a PBEM and had this happen in ~20% of my collective tanks shots.  The target in that instance was a Khrizantema, not a tank, it missed.  Two fragmentation rounds were shot at infantry and two APFSDS were shot at a tank and another Khrizantema.  I am not including area fire, but those shot seem to always be frag.  Game just started so things may change. 

Stefano

Edited October 19, 2017 by Stefano Z

[c3k]

Okay...something to possibly look into.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

There is a very simple and utterly realistic solution to this issue that requires almost no work on the teams' part.   

[BTR]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

There is a very simple and utterly realistic solution to this issue that requires almost no work on the teams' part.   

I can think of at least two such solutions, but which one are you thinking of? 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Remove the Oplots, they are mostly fictional (ask the Thais). 

[LukeFF]

26 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Remove the Oplots, they are mostly fictional (ask the Thais). 

You know, if you hate them that much, just ignore the fact they are in the game. The way you obsess about their mere existence borders on the absurd. 

P.S. : why don't you harp on the same way about the T-90AM or the fact that the Syrians in CMSF have BMP-3s? 

PPS: Thailand apparently has taken delivery of 25 Oplots. That's hardly fictional.

Edited November 6, 2017 by LukeFF

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

PPS: Thailand apparently has taken delivery of 25 Oplots. That's hardly fictional.

All 49 already done, last party is preparing to final tests before shipping. First Oplot company will be in Ukrainain army at the end of 2017. Very want to believe. There is rumors, that on Tank Challenge-2018 our team will participate on BM Oplot.

About bug, yes, I also have been spotting this sometime on Bulats too, but I didn't check statistic how much per 100 shots. Looks like AI in some situations is chose more strong ammunition, especially against tanks.

[Stefano Z]

9 hours ago, c3k said:

Okay...something to possibly look into.

I had an Oplot choosing missile vs sabot against a tank ~1.5 km away, same game I mentioned in the previous post.  As far as that game is concerned ~half the time the Oplot fires an ATGM against tanks... n = 2, I am aware it is not ideal.  At least selective pressure should weed out those ATGM-loving tank commanders fairly quickly...

[Artkin]

7 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Remove the Oplots, they are mostly fictional (ask the Thais). 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

P.S. : why don't you harp on the same way about the T-90AM or the fact that the Syrians in CMSF have BMP-3s? 

Because the former is a decent representation of the T-90M, and the BMP-3s are handy for the UAE in CM:SF.

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

PPS: Thailand apparently has taken delivery of 25 Oplots. That's hardly fictional.

They ordered double that and they're already three years late, the Thais have since turned to the Chinese to fill their future requirements.

6 hours ago, Haiduk said:

All 49 already done, last party is preparing to final tests before shipping. First Oplot company will be in Ukrainain army at the end of 2017. Very want to believe. There is rumors, that on Tank Challenge-2018 our team will participate on BM Oplot.

Even if these are actually delivered (albeit just a teeny bit late) it still doesn't put any BM Oplots in the hands of the Ukrainian military, which is what the game represents.....If someone gets the urge to model the Thais at war, I guess we'll finally have a use for Oplots, but other than that it's a diminishing number of Bulats & then T-64BVs all the way (unless we happen to get some earlier T-72s or the T-80).

Edited November 7, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[akd]

There are exactly as many Oplots in Ukrainian service as there are T-90Ms in Russian service.

Edited November 7, 2017 by akd

[Vanir Ausf B]

Part of the problem is that the APFSDS ammunition Ukraine uses is old Soviet stock from the 80s that performs poorly against the latest Russian tanks. The ATGM has better penetration. It shouldn't be using missiles against soft skinned vehicles, however.

[IICptMillerII]

On 10/19/2017 at 4:44 AM, kraze said:

Even in the latest version (2.10) BM Oplot uses ATGM exclusively to attack enemy tanks even at sub 300m distances

I too have noticed this with UKR tanks in general. They tend to default to using the ATGMs, regardless of range. 

3 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Part of the problem is that the APFSDS ammunition Ukraine uses is old Soviet stock from the 80s that performs poorly against the latest Russian tanks. The ATGM has better penetration. It shouldn't be using missiles against soft skinned vehicles, however.

This is what I think is happening as well. The TacAI is using the ammo best suited to destroying the target, and because the ATGMs are much better than the sabot rounds they carry, they tend to default to the ATGMs all the time. 

Not sure if its a bug, or if it should be heavily tweaked or not to be honest. But at the very least I can say that I too observe the behavior. 

P.S The behavior is also present in CMSF to some extent. T62s tend to engage all targets with the ATGMs first, for what I assume is the same reason the UKR tanks do the same. 

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, akd said:

There are some exactly as many Oplots in Ukrainian service as there are T-90Ms in Russian service.

Bingo

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

the BMP-3s are handy for the UAE in CM:SF

The UAE?  Since when has CMSF modeled the forces of the UAE?

[Haiduk]

ATGM launch has a sence from well covered position and as a rule on long range (where APFSDS significantly lost own penetration capabilities). By soviet doctrine, tank ATGMs are "long hand" with ranges of launch over 2 km and more. Of course, real combat has different situation, but even on Donbas with mostly flat/small hills terrain, tank ATGM launches were too rare. 

[BTR]

ATGM load process  is slower, ATGM time to target is longer. It is never really a choice in modern conflict about what to type of ammo to use under 2km which encompasses like 80% of CM ranges. IMO under 2km the round selection process should be AP>HE/HEAT without even a hint of ATGM. Over 2km it should be AP>ATGM then everything else. 

[Haiduk]

4 hours ago, BTR said:

IMO under 2km the round selection process should be AP>HE/HEAT without even a hint of ATGM. Over 2km it should be AP>ATGM then everything else. 

According to Fofanov HEAT has less dispersion then APFSDS , but because its muzzle velocity 900-1000 m/s, they are not so good for firing on moving targets with relatively big angle speed.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Haiduk

[BTR]

I am not sure that applies to modern rounds any longer since his text is about 70s trials. Besides, dispersion is a rather abstract form of measuring total accuracy because it fixes everything else (distance, ballistic trajectories, time to targets) and watches round characteristics only. 

[kraze]

On 11/7/2017 at 5:15 AM, Vanir Ausf B said:

Part of the problem is that the APFSDS ammunition Ukraine uses is old Soviet stock from the 80s that performs poorly against the latest Russian tanks. The ATGM has better penetration. It shouldn't be using missiles against soft skinned vehicles, however.

I had no problems with Oplot vs.T72B3/T90A penetration whenever the former used APFSDS, especially at sub 1km distances. So it's not bad at all. The problem is that it does that rarely and ATGMs are slow, have a higher chance to miss and, worst of all, will detonate when encountering a branch or a bush - making Oplots harmless. And on a modern battlefield where the one who hits first is the one who wins that's critical.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:13 AM, LukeFF said:

The UAE?  Since when has CMSF modeled the forces of the UAE?

Since the squabbling with Qatar started out.....I'm constantly messing around with things in the editor, to see what can and can't be modelled, I've done Turks, Saudis, the UAE, Qataris, Kurds, Hezbollah, Al Shebab & Boko Haram, to name but a few. 

It's kind of tricky to do the Ukrainians though, far too many Oplots, not enough T-72s (or T-80s):

Edited November 9, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[BTR]

Eh, speaking of Oplots, 41st one just left for field trials last month with a 1st Nov. deadline for delivery. I've not heard much since then but there are only 8 left in the contract after that which means it might be completed in 2018 after all.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by BTR

[kraze]

Oh BM Oplot certainly doesn't exist - that's why Ukraine isn't afraid to put one for kids to jump on

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:10 PM, kraze said:

that's why Ukraine isn't afraid to put one for kids to jump on

Just before it's packed on a ship and sent to Thailand.....Three years late.