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OK, still reading up on this so I may have the wrong end of the stick.....As I understand it the EFP is created by the very precisely timed detonation of a very precisely shaped explosive behind a bowl shaped face plate.  The detonation forms the materiel of the face plate into a very particular shape and launches it at the target.

If the explosive layer and/or face plate is/are damaged by fragmentation, surely the detonation will not be sufficiently precise to correctly form the EFP?

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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Not at random at all. That's where they were last seen as part of a formation (295th MRD) back in 1990. 

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1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

If the explosive layer and/or face plate is/are damaged by fragmentation, surely the detonation will not be sufficiently precise to correctly form the EFP?

Nope, you'd need to severely disrupt the warhead to sufficiently degrade penetration abilities. The exact form of the 3 Km/s snowball at 100-200cm to target does not mean much for 30-60cm of (mere) RHA.

PS Correction: by sufficiently I meant reducing the EFP core weight by 3-4-5 times, or increasing the penetrator's pressure spot accordingly.

Edited by IMHO
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2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Good points, TBH it's not something I understand fully, but I'm trying to get my head around it as it seems to be the future of AFV defences.....I'm currently reading over on SH that Afghanit uses a EFP/MEFP charge rather than a fragmentation round like Arena.

Cool MEFP pic, stolen directly from the thread there:

6496222.jpg

How precise does the triggering process have to be for the EFP(s) to be correctly formed & targeted? 

 

I just want to know who designed the MEFP to make smiley faces.  That is just sick.. Funny, but sick.

Edited by sburke
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9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Exactly, if the liners are penetrated the EFP will be malformed and it will lose at least half of its punch.

Of course, which is why I never implied even an iota that there would be penetration.  Please reread my posts.  The issue with 6# of explosives going off right above a bunch of delicate equipment is that the delicate equipment isn't under armor and it tends not to like 'splody things.  I don't know what the effect would be, but there is inherently more risk from an overhead close in explosion of a large warhead than a lateral explosion of one 30% of its size.  That's the difference between intercepting an RPG round vs intercepting a fly over from a TOW-2B.  Whether it makes any effective difference to the crap stuck to the top of a tank or not, I can't say.  I'm just saying the potential is there where in other scenarios it isn't.

Steve

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9 hours ago, IMHO said:

A real picture from the same exhibition Arms and Security 2017 in Kiev... Ukrainian side is seriously underpowered? :wacko:

Real fun is Maxims, even pre-WWII production, are working on frontline more reliably, than KM-7.62 UKR clones of PKM by "Mayak" factory...

Edited by Haiduk
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1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

Real fun is Maxims, even pre-WWII production, are working on frontline more reliably, than KM-7.62 UKR clones of PKM by "Mayak" factory...

The fun from the Russian side - NBC recon vehicle... And the name is Razrukha-1. Ruin-1 or Dilapidation-1 :)

image.png.681aa02bf6deb1bf94d6f0b8ba338f10.png

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14 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Of course, which is why I never implied even an iota that there would be penetration.  Please reread my posts.  The issue with 6# of explosives going off right above a bunch of delicate equipment is that the delicate equipment isn't under armor and it tends not to like 'splody things.  I don't know what the effect would be, but there is inherently more risk from an overhead close in explosion of a large warhead than a lateral explosion of one 30% of its size.  That's the difference between intercepting an RPG round vs intercepting a fly over from a TOW-2B.  Whether it makes any effective difference to the crap stuck to the top of a tank or not, I can't say.  I'm just saying the potential is there where in other scenarios it isn't.

I agree with your thoughts and I'm not suggesting there is an issue that needs to be addressed, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what these systems do, how they do it and how effective they are.....I'm hoping some more info on the soft-kill system may be forthcoming and the news that Afghanit doesn't necessarily rely on fragmentation was also interesting IMHO (it appears the munitions are being manufactured in two types, with & without fragmentation effects):

Elements of APS for the universal combat platform "Armata".


3UOF24 100-mm munition for APS on BMP B-11 "Kurganets-25"
3UOF25 100-mm munition for "Afganit" APS with high-explosive fragmentation projectile 3OF77 and charge TKB-941 for tank Т-14, and Heavy IFV Т-15

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On 5/3/2018 at 10:05 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Interesting.....Do you have any more on this?

295th was a pure T-72 formation, and 9 T-55s were there as extra. That coincides with "У" makings meaning they were assigned to division training unit. However, all six produced T-55AD battalions were stationed in Transcaucasian Military District and most of them went to Ukraine for decommission post SU dissolution. Despite how often it is said that T-55ADs participated in Afghanistan, it is not true until proven otherwise and according to what I know these vehicles never left TMD. 

Edited by BTR
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9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I'm beginning to believe that you may be right.

Well, thanks I guess :D. Veteran-info also told us about T-62Ds and their APS while that combination wasn't even an item so I'd be very careful reading into first hand accounts. 

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14 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

On that account, you are incorrect:

Handler.ashx?UniqueID=620&Size=E

 

That's not actually a 62D. T-62D = stock T-62 with add-on armor package from T-62M. The "D" lettering here follows the same principle as in "BMP-1D" and "BMP-2D". APS never went forwards on the T-62 and therefore that vehicle above is just a testbed. There are several husks from the development process, one in Moscow proper, one in Kubinka backyard as I remember. 

Edited by BTR
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While I'm not doubting the general veracity of your comments, some links to follow would be much appreciated.

I'm poring over images of tank graveyards in Afghanistan at the moment, lots of the usual suspects and a few oddities (Renault FT.17!!!), but nothing with a visible Drozd system so far.

1_copy942.jpg

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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From one of Murahovskiy's earlier works. Citation in Russian so you can google for pdf's if there are any - «Современные танки» Мураховский В.И., Павлов М.В., Сафонов Б.С., Солянкин А.Г.. Москва, «Арсенал-Пресс», 1995. 

Модификации Танков Т-55-Т-62.jpg

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This is alleged to show T-55ADs in Afghanistan:

f394dbcfc7f2.jpg

Not the most helpful or informative image really.  :rolleyes:

I've found one possible candidate in a tank graveyard that is definitely in Afghanistan, but it's a tiny part of a bigger image and I could be seeing stowage boxes or even just junk rather than Drozd.....Also I'd imagine the Americans might well have swept up any interesting & unusual finds in the Soviet tank-graveyards long ago.  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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