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Suggestion to Soviet TO&E adjustment


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As new module is coming, I would post some suggestions about Soviet rifle TO.

1) I've found out that since 1943 in Soviet rifle companies 1 platoon of 3 was armed with SMGs, with exception to machiengunners and snipers.

This is a scan of rifle TO&E  4/550, 1943:

328865_original.jpg

There is written:

"Один взвод вооружается пистолетами-пулеметами за исключением снайперов и наводчиков, в количестве 23 автомата"

"One platoon is armed with SMGs with exception of snipers and gunners, in number of 23 SMG"

And this is proved by many other documents, (summer 1943) where is described experience of using SMG platoon, supply problems, tactical suggerstions e.t.c. "Avtomatchiki" should infiltrate in enemy positions and suddenly attack from flank or rear, in short.

2) In the late period of war rifle units didn't have enough personell, so reduced TO&E were in use. In that scan above you can see that rifle platoon had 28 men. PL, assistant, 2 snipers and 3 squads. In squad: leader, gunner - leader assistant, gunner assistant, 5 riflemen, 8 men in total.

3) Actually number of SVT rifles was low, According to TO&E each rifleman must have SVT, but in fact since 1942 production number was very low, so realistic number would 1 per squad with 50% probability or so, May be for №2 in sniper team, By the way, second man in sniper team also should have a "marksman" skill, (As you see in scan above, there is 2 snipers) He should have a scoped rifle also, but in fact there were not enough scoped rifles, so snipers used usual rifles, chosen for better accuracy.

 

So what do you think about this? There is suprisingly few Russian sources about Soviet TOs, may be I missed something. Let's discuss it.

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3 hours ago, DMS said:

 

I just hope BF fixes the Standard Inf Squad to have around 2x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x SVT 5x Rifles (Front Line Bolt Rifle Nagant's by late 43-44' should be the slightly shorter version)...As it stands now, it's just a mix of to many Auto's with only 1-2 Bolt Rifles.

Yes, Soviet would have 1x Scoped Rifle and 1x Marksman Rifle per Platoon would be suffice...In contrast the Germans would have 1x Sniper per Company with 1x Marksman per Platoon.

Edited by JoMc67
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22 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

I just hope BF fixes the Standard Inf Squad to have around 2x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x SVT 5x Rifles (Front Line Bolt Rifle Nagant's by late 43-44' should be the slightly shorter version)...As it stands now, it's just a mix of to many Auto's with only 1-2 Bolt Rifles.

Yes, Soviet would have 1x Scoped Rifle and 1x Marksman Rifle per Platoon would be suffice...In contrast the Germans would have 1x Sniper per Company with 1x Marksman per Platoon.

Well, if 1 platoon in rifle company get SMGs instead of rifles, there are even more auto weapons. :)

If SMG max range wouldn't be limited by 200 metres... IRL PPSh's were used up to 300m.

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1 hour ago, Erwin said:

SMG's used to fire at longer rage but players complained that they were wasting ammo and didn't want the SMG's to fire out of effective range.  So, BF changed that.

Yes, I actually think BF should just Just go ahead and make all SMG's have a Max Range 250 meters, but with effective range at 100 meters...(100 meters SMG fire at regular intervals, outside that fire at slower irregular intervals).

Edited by JoMc67
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20 hours ago, DougPhresh said:

I wish the game differentiated between range and effective range. PPSh might be best out to 200, but let my guys open up at 300 if they need to with less accuracy and stopping power.

As a practical matter, it does in all cases outside of SMGs. Shooting with nothing but Kar98s or Garlands at five hundred meters is not generally a winning strategy.

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Someone made the point that in CM games it usually seems like "why aren't all troops equipped with smg's?" since LOS ranges are generally low due to map size.  However, in RL most engagements were at longer ranges 400m+ so in RL rifles were more valuable in most cases.

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6 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Someone made the point that in CM games it usually seems like "why aren't all troops equipped with smg's?" since LOS ranges are generally low due to map size.  However, in RL most engagements were at longer ranges 400m+ so in RL rifles were more valuable in most cases.

Well... Bolt action rifle at 400m+ is much better than SMG, but is not effective also. Semi-auto is better, but not much. Machiengun is decisive weapon.

By the way, 7,62x25 was closest to intermediate catridges: 7,62x39, 7,92x33, .30 Carbine. Trajectory is not higher than 0,5 m up to 200-250m. So PPSh was not a typical SMG.

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1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Someone made the point that in CM games it usually seems like "why aren't all troops equipped with smg's?" since LOS ranges are generally low due to map size.  However, in RL most engagements were at longer ranges 400m+ so in RL rifles were more valuable in most cases.

Oh, and which games are these?

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The point was that almost all CM2 games feature maps which are smaller than what was normal in CM1.  As a result, map designers generally restrict LOS so that it's rare to get long range combat opportunities.  In these scenarios where ranges are in the 100m-300m range, SMG's are most useful.  If this were true in RL all RL inf units would have a much higher % of SMG's.  It has been pointed out in other treads however that in RL, most combat is at longer ranges, so rifles are more useful.

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28 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

A 1943 platoon had how many people in each squad then? And did they use the 2 lmg squads like in the game?

This is штат 4/550 (TO&E 4/550), 10.12.42 (not reduced)

40 men in platoon. Platoon leader, assistant, 2 snipers, 4 squads. Each squad 9 men.

2 squads with 2 MGs and 1 SMG, 2 squads with 1 MG and 2 SMGs, In the game all is correct. With the exception of SMG platoon, though 2 variants are possible, I guess. (With SMG platoon and without, like in the game now) I think some units could ignore changes because of supply reasons,

Edited by DMS
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On 8/1/2017 at 7:24 AM, JoMc67 said:

I just hope BF fixes the Standard Inf Squad to have around 2x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x SVT 5x Rifles (Front Line Bolt Rifle Nagant's by late 43-44' should be the slightly shorter version)...

Eh...no. :) First off, it's the Mosin-Nagant. A Nagant is a revolver. Secondly, M91/30s were the main battle rifle for the entirety of the war. The M38 was for second-line troops and heavy weapons teams, while the M44 didn't come into general use until late '44 or so. It never supplanted the 91/30. 

Edited by LukeFF
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On 8/3/2017 at 1:46 PM, Erwin said:

The point was that almost all CM2 games feature maps which are smaller than what was normal in CM1.  As a result, map designers generally restrict LOS so that it's rare to get long range combat opportunities.  In these scenarios where ranges are in the 100m-300m range, SMG's are most useful.  If this were true in RL all RL inf units would have a much higher % of SMG's.  It has been pointed out in other treads however that in RL, most combat is at longer ranges, so rifles are more useful.

So, why don't you help fill in that gap you always like to bring up and give us some larger maps and scenarios to play with?

Edited by LukeFF
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I was simply responding to someone's else's comment to explain why our CM2 games seem to favor SMG's when longer range rifles are what used to be used more commonly.  

Sorry that these forums are not your personal playpen.  Why don't you take your attitude and go play with the other kindergarteners.  Oh... you probably already have...

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4 hours ago, Erwin said:

I was simply responding to someone's else's comment to explain why our CM2 games seem to favor SMG's when longer range rifles are what used to be used more commonly.  

Sorry that these forums are not your personal playpen.  Why don't you take your attitude and go play with the other kindergarteners.  Oh... you probably already have...

Don't you do a bunch of playtesting anyway?

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On 8/1/2017 at 7:06 PM, DMS said:

So what do you think about this? There is suprisingly few Russian sources about Soviet TOs, may be I missed something. Let's discuss it.

The strange things is that CMBB had this already, in the Soviet Rifle Battalion 44B, infantry force type:

 

sov rifle bn 44B.jpg

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On 08.08.2017 at 5:32 PM, Apocal said:

The strange things is that CMBB had this already, in the Soviet Rifle Battalion 44B, infantry force type:

 

Variant "A" without SMG platoon and variant "B" with. Great! Did SMG squads have snipers and MGs?

 

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