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Putin seems to be incrementally taking over Georgia


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13 minutes ago, Saint_Fuller said:

There's a bit of a difference between civilian targets getting hit by mistake as you conduct operations in urban terrain against insurgents, and burning a city to ash block by block with zero regard for anyone in the target zone as revenge for getting ****ed up the last time you tried to take it.

Meet Mosul:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/war-torn-mosul-july/?utm_term=.0f530e120e2d

Believe me, when your opposition is on the upper floors of buildings that have civilians in the basement and you are using JDAMs, 155mm artillery, TOS-1 Buratino and Mi-35s, not to mention the rather less precise IRAM to kill them, then no, there is not a 'bit of a difference'.....Ask the citizens, you'll find their own words in the article and elsewhere, what they feared most was the air-strikes, just like the citizens of Aleppo.  I guess random unstoppable mega-death in the night can effect you like that after a while.  :rolleyes:

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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6 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I see no facts, show me the links.....I suspect if you investigate thoroughly you might find things are other than you imagine.  ;)

Remember, this doesn't mean just finding the first article on Google that supports your preconceived assumption, rather it means looking at all the sources and making a judgement based on the weight of evidence and  balance of probability.

Which sources?The ones that unapologetically savage the US for ineptitude openly while they (The US) own up to ****ing up? http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-pentagon-hospital-airstrike-20160428-story.html

Or the ones that deny unequivocally that The Russian Air force double tapped a hospital? https://www.rt.com/news/332603-syria-hospital-accusations-denial/

A Nation that can own up to its **** ups is one I'd rather trust

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@Sgt.Squarehead,

There's a joke of Soviet times about a one-on-one running challenge between Brezhnev and Nixon. Nixon came the first and Brezhnev - the second. Next day headlines in US press: "US president won the race, Soviet leader was the last one to cross the finish line". Headlines in the Soviet press: "Comrade Brezhnev took the second place, US President was a puny next to the last".

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4 minutes ago, Saint_Fuller said:

 

There's a bit of a difference between civilian targets getting hit by mistake as you conduct operations in urban terrain against insurgents, and burning a city to ash block by block with zero regard for anyone in the target zone as revenge for getting ****ed up the last time you tried to take it.

The difference in how Americans and Russians conduct urban operations is in the difference between Cordon & Search and Cordon & Smerch, so to say.

So they could.

They'd be wrong, but they could definitely make that claim.

It's just amazing how time after time all of our precise smart bombing inevitably leads to more casualties than Russian barbaric "smersh" that goes specifically after hospitals (as if they hold any military value). Look at the results of bombing campaigns in WW2. Vietnam vs Afghanistan. Syria vs Iraq and a clear pattern emerges - our actions result in higher number of dead civilians than anyone elses'. I am not even talking about the strategic results of our recent campaigns than have plunged already volatile middle-east into the middle ages....

Now don't get me wrong, I love my country and I love my armed forces. I truly believe and even somewhat know it to be a fact  that our servicemen have truly cared to minimize the civilian suffering; but guess what - war is a bitch and this type of "clean war" (that some of the members on this forum seem to buy into) is just an illusion sold to us by those who want us to focus all our attention on Russia (I am not saying that we should apply no scrutiny to them either) while they continue to play their power games with no winner in sight... But hey - Yahoo Finance might not exactly publish that line of thought.

What really bothers me is that the rest of the world knows what we are doing perfectly well and just because they are not saying anything does not mean that they are not making conclusions...

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1 minute ago, DreDay said:

It's just amazing how time after time all of our precise smart bombing inevitably leads to more casualties than Russian barbaric "smersh" that goes specifically after hospitals (as if they hold any military value). Look at the results of bombing campaigns in WW2. Vietnam vs Afghanistan. Syria vs Iraq and a clear pattern emerges - our actions result in higher number of dead civilians than anyone elses'. I am not even talking about the strategic results of our recent campaigns than have plunged already volatile middle-east into the middle ages....

Now don't get me wrong, I love my country and I love my armed forces. I truly believe and even somewhat know it to be a fact  that our servicemen have truly cared to minimize the civilian suffering; but guess what - war is a bitch and this type of "clean war" (that some of the members on this forum seem to buy into) is just an illusion sold to us by those who want us to focus all our attention on Russia (I am not saying that we should apply no scrutiny to them either) while they continue to play their power games with no winner in sight... But hey - Yahoo Finance might not exactly publish that line of thought.

What really bothers me is that the rest of the world knows what we are doing perfectly well and just because they are not saying anything does not mean that they are not making conclusions...

I'm not American nor did I quote "Yahoo Finance" but ok there champ

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4 minutes ago, Mishrae said:

Which sources?The ones that unapologetically savage the US for ineptitude openly while they (The US) own up to ****ing up? http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-pentagon-hospital-airstrike-20160428-story.html

Or the ones that deny unequivocally that The Russian Air force double tapped a hospital? https://www.rt.com/news/332603-syria-hospital-accusations-denial/

A Nation that can own up to its **** ups is one I'd rather trust

I hate to break it to you friend, but we don't exactly share all our mistakes either; or have you forgotten our esteemed Secretary of State shaking a lab tube with backing soda in front of the whole world's audience in 2003? That does not justify the disinformation that the Russians are spreading; but as an American I am much more concerned about what our guys are not telling us as opposed to some authoritarian state half the world away. In my opinion, that is something that every responsible citizen should exercise.

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9 minutes ago, Mishrae said:

I'm not American nor did I quote "Yahoo Finance" but ok there champ

I don't think that was aimed at you directly fella, I'd hope we're all mature enough to 'play the ball, not the man'.

I'm looking into that hospital thing.....That's a new one on me, once I've found the facts I'll form a judgement.  I acknowledge that the US eventually accepted responsibility for the Kabul attack, more strength to them for doing so.  I hope if the evidence in the other instance does point to Russia that they will eventually (and probably reluctantly) admit it, again much like the situation in Kabul.

Don't conflate the fact that I like and admire Russia with the idea that I must hate or despise anyone else, that just isn't so (except head-choppers, Nazis & other mass murderers of course (and yes that includes Stalin, he was a monster, but he killed a bigger one)).

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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4 minutes ago, Mishrae said:

I'm not American nor did I quote "Yahoo Finance" but ok there champ

My reply was not aimed at you directly, but rather at a certain portion of our forum members that you (as I thought) identify with. Yahoo Finance was an inside joke, you would have to read the whole thread to get it; so no worries.

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One other thing that should be considered is the sheer ridiculousness of the medias' fervent wish that the US would intervene in eastern Europe against Russia.

To use a poker analogy the US has just passed every round in a head to head with North Korea, they are out of chips.  North Korea is said to have around a dozen nuclear warheads, Russia has around five thousand.  So the concept that the US is going all-in over Ukraine or Georgia is utterly delusional. (and if they try a weak raise, you can be quite sure that they will be massively re-raised by their opponent, who has nothing to lose).

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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17 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

One other thing that should be considered is the sheer ridiculousness of the medias' fervent wish that the US would intervene in eastern Europe against Russia.

To use a poker analogy the US has just passed every round in a head to head with North Korea, they are out of chips.  North Korea is said to have around a dozen nuclear warheads, Russia has around five thousand.  So the concept that the US is going all-in over Ukraine or Georgia is utterly delusional. (and if they try a weak raise, you can be quite sure that they will be massively re-raised by their opponent, who has nothing to lose).

That scares me as well, as very few people (including our dear colleagues here) seem to realize what's at stake (i.e. the destruction of our civilization as we know it). To be fair though - Russians do have a lot to loose, so I would not expect them to turn to nuclear deterrent unless they face a physical threat to their survival (as in WW2). What really scares me though, is that Russians can call our bluff and nuke some of our allies (i.e. Poland); knowing full well that we would likely have to restrain from counter-striking Russian mainland. This horrific "loophole" in our doctrine, coupled with failure to even consider Russian interests is the most dangerous legacy of Obama's administration in my opinion.

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7 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not sure how that would benefit them though, unless a full scale conflagration was already under way, IMHO once one 'sunshine-genie' gets out of it's bottle, they all will.

I certainly hope that they never try out our bluff, and I can only see such development in a critical (for Russia) condition where all conventional means will be lost. However, the benefit (in a pure real politik sense) is quite clear - it will wipe out NATO infrastructure essential to supporting the invasion into Russian mainland and destroy the missile-defense systems along with any possible carriers. I honestly don't know if POTUS would be strong enough to end the world as we know it over Poland (just as an example). I honestly would don't know how I (and most of my compatriots) would feel about that. It's just eerie to even contemplate...

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3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Meet Mosul:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/war-torn-mosul-july/?utm_term=.0f530e120e2d

Believe me, when your opposition is on the upper floors of buildings that have civilians in the basement and you are using JDAMs, 155mm artillery, TOS-1 Buratino and Mi-35s, not to mention the rather less precise IRAM to kill them, then no, there is not a 'bit of a difference'.....Ask the citizens, you'll find their own words in the article and elsewhere, what they feared most was the air-strikes, just like the citizens of Aleppo.  I guess random unstoppable mega-death in the night can effect you like that after a while.  :rolleyes:

 

"American officer convicted in shooting deaths of 2 Afghans". "American army soldier convicted of killing Iraqi detainees". "Soldier sentenced to life without parole for killing 16 Afghans".

I tried to find anything about Russian soldiers involved in the various massacres of civilians in Chechnya being taken to court or convicted for these murders, but I couldn't find anything. There's definitely nothing here that relates to any point I've made. :^)

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Duly noted, do you have links to reports of the incidents you describe?  I'm not putting anyone on a pedestal here as I thought my comments made clear.

Conversely here in the UK we had the case of Marine A, who was recently (and rightly IMHO) released.....These things are never simple.

PS - Just noted your Avatar/Name, don't suppose you are a fan of Charles Stross at all?  Or is it just the tank thing?  :D

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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12 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Duly noted, do you have links to reports of the incidents you describe?  I'm not putting anyone on a pedestal here as I thought my comments made clear.

Conversely here in the UK we had the case of Marine A, who was recently (and rightly IMHO) released.....These things are never simple.

PS - Just noted your Avatar/Name, don't suppose you are a fan of Charles Stross at all?  Or is it just the tank thing?  :D

It's the tank thing more or less. I'm kind of a treadhead, and I thought it was a neat thing.

 

That aside, yes, there are reports.
The HRW on the executions in Staropromyslovsky.

Novye Aldi.

Alkhan-Yurt.

And to cap it off, here's the NYT reporting on the shooting of 40 refugees by OMON troops in the "safe corridor" out of Grozny.

Besides one man (and that case never actually took shape because he went underground and it got suspended in 2005 because of his disappearance), no one was taken to court, let alone convicted, for any of these massacres to my knowledge.

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Pretty damning stuff, it must be said.  :mellow:

If Russia really wants to play a bigger role on the world stage it's going to have to address issues like this.....The Chechen conflicts perfectly encapsulates the concept of 'Bad-War' for me, while that doesn't in any way excuse this behaviour, it might go some way toward explaining it.

Found a Guardian article dated 2000 covering the Katyr Yurt incident, how perspectives change (note the comment from British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook): 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/05/russia.chechnya

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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4 hours ago, Saint_Fuller said:

It's the tank thing more or less. I'm kind of a treadhead, and I thought it was a neat thing.

 

That aside, yes, there are reports.
The HRW on the executions in Staropromyslovsky.

Novye Aldi.

Alkhan-Yurt.

And to cap it off, here's the NYT reporting on the shooting of 40 refugees by OMON troops in the "safe corridor" out of Grozny.

Besides one man (and that case never actually took shape because he went underground and it got suspended in 2005 because of his disappearance), no one was taken to court, let alone convicted, for any of these massacres to my knowledge.

 

There have actually been quite a few very public cases that involved Russian servicemen going on trial for crimes that they had supposedly committed in Chechnya. Not sure where you have been looking for this information; but I guarantee you that it is out there.

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1 minute ago, DreDay said:

 

There have actually been quite a few very public cases that involved Russian servicemen going on trial for crimes that they had supposedly committed in Chechnya. Not sure where you have been looking for this information; but I guarantee you that it is out there.

Do you have any kind of a source regarding this?

I'm actually slightly dubious here to be quite honest with you, because the general understanding I've gotten of it from perusing HRW and various other stuff (including news articles and some later stuff relating to ECHR judgments on the matter around 2007) is that a lot of these incidents were barely investigated at all (the outright opposite even - the HRW page for Novye Aldi mentions that the surviving civilians in the town were threatened to silence by Russian troops), and that no real action was taken to bring those responsible to justice. As I said, I wasn't able to find anything that really mentioned anyone getting taken to court over it, but I admittedly didn't look that hard either.

So yeah if you have any sources that'd be nice.

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Unfortunately I will not be able to help you with exact resources, as I don't do pro-bono research. But I would suggest starting your search with Colonel Budanov (the most publicized and controversial case relating to this). I am sure that you will find links to other cases after that if you search hard enough.

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10 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That would be this:

I assumed you meant 'gassing' as I can't really visualise the Russians taking a pint-pot into battle with them.  :rolleyes:

Huh?  :huh:

Not sure I slipped there fella, I do actually read the posts you know.  ;)

Glassing is mil/sci fi slang for using an extreme force/laser/weapon on a terrestrial target, to the point that the area of the planet surface target is heated to such a degree that the very bedrock becomes glass like. 

A classic example would be from Dan Simmons "Hyperion Cantos". In the final AI  invasion an entire, heavily populated planet is "glassed" from orbit, the AI warships methodical gridding the planet until every square mile had been stripped to bedrock and that strata superheated to superlava. Since the atmosphere was also stripped away, the planet, once it cooled, had the albedo of a black marble. 

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Im not as worried about a nuclear confrontation between Russia and the US as I am with N Korea. It truly seems to me ineviteable there will be a war in the Korean peninsula, today, tomorrow, and IMO opinion at least certainly within the next 15 years. The DPRK really has nothing to lose and I fear that even if it doesnt aggressively act an eventual coup or revolution or imminent collapse of the state will lead the Kim regime to having a use it or lose it strategy vis a vis invading S Korea or things just getting exceptionally messy.

What really also troubles me are the reports that the US on N Koreas July 4 test had Kim Jong Un under observation at the missile test site for 45 minutes and could have struck and killed him ( well.. hopefully him) and didnt go for it. even with the propensity of body doubles and whatnot with no clear heir apparent and Jong Uns extreme speeding up of their missile and nuclear program vs his father and grand father means that really any N Korean general or communist lackey would probably be preferable to Jong Un. And whose to say a B1B massive JDAM strike on the missile and 'whoops we didnt know Kim was there' wouldnt lead to an internal coup or revolution and reunification?

All I know is that the DPRKs propaganda demonizes the West and fantasizes about nuking America more than even the worst of Soviet propaganda, and their way more a threat than ISIS or Al Qaeda could ever be. To top that we already have fought a very bloody war with them and to be fair they have consistently pushed and pushed since then for a larger military that could be used aggressively and nuclear weapons and missiles coupled with clear statements their intention is to nuke America.  If I had a very violent knife fight with someone down the st and since then theyd turned their house into an armed camp and continued from purchasing knives to guns to now having a TOW missile perched on their balcony aimed at my house and were regularly distributing leaflets in my neighborhood about their intention to blow me into ash.. Id end the threat sooner than later. like when the TOW launcher's missile comes in the mail next week.

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