Managing BMPs

[MikeyD]

Is Shilka still in Russian service? Wikipedia says only a small number remain in service with Russian naval infantry. There's not that many vehicles designed in the late 50s that are still in use today. BFC's got them in both Syria and Afghanistan.

About MLRS flat trajectory firing, I recall an old news story about Russian troops trying to 'recapture' a Russian border village invaded by Chechen separatists. The footage showed a GRAD firing flat trajectory over open sights directly into the village on the far side of the field. I distinctly remember it because my reaction was WOAH!!!!!

[Combatintman]

7 hours ago, kinophile said:

Iraq has used a platoon in Mosul, I believe. 

Maybe not a platoon but yes they are using them in that battle.

[cbennett88]

13 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Is Shilka still in Russian service? Wikipedia says only a small number remain in service with Russian naval infantry.

Very good question!

From some of what I have read on this forum(seem to be Ukrainians or Russian members/gamers) it seems like ZSU-24-4's are being used in theatre for only ground attack...but with the radar removed. I have no direct knowledge (and no better sources to quote). I would have to believe that, going on previous Russian habit of never "throwing away" any weapon that COULD be useful someday, they MUST have lots of these things sitting around their tank depots. 

Remember...the US Army did pretty much the same thing with the M42 Duster during the Vietnam war...and the M163{mainly the Israeli army) after...

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The Soviets/Russians have used SPAAGs in an anti-infantry role intermittently since the invasion of Afghanistan.....In that rather mountainous country they soon discovered that the weaponry of tanks & APCs often couldn't elevate sufficiently to engage Mujahideen on the slopes above them.  ZSUs with the radar removed and SPGs used in the direct fire role were the solution.  The lesson was relearned in Grozny during the Chechen Wars, when the insurgents attacked from the upper floors of multi-storey buildings.

Hence this:

this:

& ultimately this:

All three can elevate their main weapons to near vertical.

11 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Maybe not a platoon but yes they are using them in that battle.

I'm guessing this was in the fighting for West-Mosul, presumably from/with 9th AD? 

Scratch that, I thought you were talking about Shilkas, but reading back it looks like it was the Buratino. 

The Syrians take the ZSU very seriously for ground combat, but they like to beef up its armour:

Just a bit! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[cbennett88]

@Sgt.Squarehead

Awesome pic of that ZSU-23-4 with slat armor! I'm guessing that behind it are heavier metal plates to stop small arms b/c the original armor was really thin.

Thanks for finding it.

 

[Apocal]

On Saturday, June 03, 2017 at 2:39 AM, cbennett88 said:

Correct. They are listed as having about a dozen.

It was actually listed as first being used by the Soviets in Afghanistan.

The real question (IMO) is...why didn't they build more? Budget issues notwithstanding, it is not a grossly expensive system. No expensive FLIR or radars. Doesn't require a large crew to operate. Although it has been sold/given as trade to several countries, it doesn't seem to be something the Russian arms industry has had much success in selling. I find the fact that China never bought even one to test...and maybe "clone" to be interesting. They tend to buy "everything" unusual/new on the market to see if they should build their own.

It has a maximum range of only six kilometers and how many massive urban battles or fortified strongholds do you expect your army to face simultaneously?

[cbennett88]

3 hours ago, Apocal said:

It has a maximum range of only six kilometers and how many massive urban battles or fortified strongholds do you expect your army to face simultaneously?

If the Russians are known for anything, it is for clinging tightly to the lessons learned from their battles & history. Urban warfare is a cornerstone to their military heritage.

Odessa, Sevastopol, Leningrad, Stalingrad...then Grozny(3 times)...battle of Tskhinvali(Ossetia)...Battle of Ilovaisk(Ukraine)

The current listing of the Russian Army has 12 Armies(NOT divisions) in 4 districts. That would give them what...1 TOS-1 per Army?? Hardly realistic...

Given that this was fielded in the late 80's into 90's, their military wasn't feeling the budget squeeze they do now. So...isn't it far more likely they discovered an issue in the design and operation of the weapon that caused them not to build more?

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

8 hours ago, cbennett88 said:

If the Russians are known for anything, it is for clinging tightly to the lessons learned from their battles & history. Urban warfare is a cornerstone to their military heritage.

Odessa, Sevastopol, Leningrad, Stalingrad...then Grozny(3 times)...battle of Tskhinvali(Ossetia)...Battle of Ilovaisk(Ukraine)

The current listing of the Russian Army has 12 Armies(NOT divisions) in 4 districts. That would give them what...1 TOS-1 per Army?? Hardly realistic...

Given that this was fielded in the late 80's into 90's, their military wasn't feeling the budget squeeze they do now. So...isn't it far more likely they discovered an issue in the design and operation of the weapon that caused them not to build more?

Sort of?  You look at Soviet cold war doctrine for urban centers, and those battles in Grozny and you might question if they clung to those lessons terribly well.

[Kinophile]

@cbennett88 Wasn't Ilovaisk more of an open country/maneuver battle? There wasn't heavy urban fighting as such, certainly not enough to correlate it with Grozny, let alone Stalingrad (!). 

Are you thinking more about Debaltsev'? 

Edited June 5, 2017 by kinophile

[cbennett88]

@panzersaurkrautwerfer

No doubt! Never said they were good at retaining the lessons! Lol. Just said that they have fought enough of them to know that urban combat is still going to happen! 

@kinophile

You are very likely correct!

My knowledge of Ossetia and Ukraine fighting is limited. I simply used Google & wikipedia to search "urban siege battles"...then followed it up with a brief reading of those two.

My overall main point was that more than the US, Russia has a long history of urban fighting that might justify having a specialized weapon for just that type of battle.

[Apocal]

16 hours ago, cbennett88 said:

 

The current listing of the Russian Army has 12 Armies(NOT divisions) in 4 districts. That would give them what...1 TOS-1 per Army?? Hardly realistic...

Given that this was fielded in the late 80's into 90's, their military wasn't feeling the budget squeeze they do now. So...isn't it far more likely they discovered an issue in the design and operation of the weapon that caused them not to build more?

The armies wouldn't get one TOS, the guy with however many BTGs currently busting open a fortified city or thick belt of defenses would get all twelve. But they can't really concentrate fires in the way tube and rocket artillery can, due to short range. So they are essentially forced to babysit the launchers during employment. At any rate, there probably isn't any problem with the system beyond limited range, since the Russians actually bothered developing an upgrade about ten or so years back, the TOS-1A, which extended the range to six kilometers.

[Haiduk]

@kinophile @cbennett88

Quote

Wasn't Ilovaisk more of an open country/maneuver battle? There wasn't heavy urban fighting as such

Neither first, nor second.

Ilovaisk battle consists of two independent parts. First, from 6th Aug to 12th Aug - there are attempts of town assault and since 18th Aug exactly heavy urban fights, after UKR forces could enter in the town. Though both sides haven't enough armor (Ukrainain side in the town was represented mostly with light armed volunteer units and less than combined army company with some BMPs and tanks), urban battle quickly turned out to stallmate. And second part - since 23th-24th Aug 2014 - withdrawal of Sector B army group and border gurad units from Russian border to Ilovaisk under pressure of invaded Russian troops. 25th Aug all Ukrainain groups around Ilovaisk were encircled. Up to 28th Aug there were position defensive clashes, 29th Aug UKR forces have received guarantees from Russian High Command about secure withdrawal in "green corridor". Troops were lined up in two columnes and in march order have drove in western direction. But after several kilometers Russian and DNR forces, entrenched on their way, became shot out both columnes. This wasn't "maneuver battle". This was shot out like on firing range. All vehicles were destroyed, survived personnel was saving own lifes in sunflower fields. Only 31st Aug Russians stopped headhunting and allowed Red Cross to enter to masacre zone and take wounded, POWs and bodies. 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Haiduk

[DreDay]

On June 6, 2017 at 0:59 PM, Haiduk said:

@kinophile @cbennett88

Neither first, nor second.

Ilovaisk battle consists of two independent parts. First, from 6th Aug to 12th Aug - there are attempts of town assault and since 18th Aug exactly heavy urban fights, after UKR forces could enter in the town. Though both sides haven't enough armor (Ukrainain side in the town was represented mostly with light armed volunteer units and less than combined army company with some BMPs and tanks), urban battle quickly turned out to stallmate. And second part - since 23th-24th Aug 2014 - withdrawal of Sector B army group and border gurad units from Russian border to Ilovaisk under pressure of invaded Russian troops. 25th Aug all Ukrainain groups around Ilovaisk were encircled. Up to 28th Aug there were position defensive clashes, 29th Aug UKR forces have received guarantees from Russian High Command about secure withdrawal in "green corridor". Troops were lined up in two columnes and in march order have drove in western direction. But after several kilometers Russian and DNR forces, entrenched on their way, became shot out both columnes. This wasn't "maneuver battle". This was shot out like on firing range. All vehicles were destroyed, survived personnel was saving own lifes in sunflower fields. Only 31st Aug Russians stopped headhunting and allowed Red Cross to enter to masacre zone and take wounded, POWs and bodies. 

 

Just to be sure that I understand it correctly - here are some questions:

Is it fair to say that Ilovaisk was originally defended by locals like Givi(who was born and raised there)?

I seem to remember Mr Putin making a statement that the troops encircled in Ilovaisk could leave with honor, but they had to surrender their weapons. Was that not discussed between Russian and Ukranian command on site?

Did the Ukranian columns not attempt to take all the weapons with them when leaving their camp?

Were they not asked by Russian officers to hold off for 15 minutes, while they tried clarify the situation with their command?

Did the Ukranian CO not ignore this request by ordering his subbordinates to "break out"?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to accuse the Ukranians and to abdicate the Russians. I would just very much to appreciate hearing your honest thoughts on that. Thank you!

 

 

 

[DreDay]

On June 5, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Apocal said:

At any rate, there probably isn't any problem with the system beyond limited range, since the Russians actually bothered developing an upgrade about ten or so years back, the TOS-1A, which extended the range to six kilometers.

True. Just to add-on to your point - not only did they continue developing them; but also oversaw their heavy use in Iraq and Syria...and even Ukraine if we are to believe ZSU command...

[JUAN DEAG]

1 hour ago, DreDay said:

...and even Ukraine if we are to believe ZSU command...

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/186276

[DreDay]

19 minutes ago, JUAN DEAG said:

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/186276

Thank you for the link, I remember some Ukrainian official calling it Pinocchio or something like that.

[Haiduk]

@DreDay

Enemy forces in Ilovaisk were mixed - locals and Russian volunteers. Later some "vacationers" have been added. As minimum two of them from VDV, where captured during urban combat.

Story about this "honor leaving" to this time covered by fog and classified documents. But question about this were solving on highest military level. Russia wants complete disarming, Ukrainian side wanted "honor leaving" with all weapons and guaranties. UKR troops has some number of captured Russian regulars and this allow to make own denand. Our general staff also protracted negotiatins and with hurry gathered units, which could to make a hole in the pocket. First attempt was conducted 27th or 28th Aug, but two companies, which even havn't maps lost on unfamiliar terrain were dispersed by enemy artillery strike and BMD attack. Only battalion of 72nd brigade and part of 79th airmobile brigade were fresh and could by ready in nearest time. But later became clear, that paratroopers can arrive only on 2-3 Sep, commander of 72nd battalion actullaly made a sabotage and foiled own task - battalion even didn't arrive on line of advance.

UKR and Russain General staffs made agreement about "green corridor" for troops and vehicles, but suddenly in the night on 29th Aug Russians have changed own conditions and returned to "disarm and leave". Army General V.Muzhenko, chief of staff, have direct communication with general Khomchak, wich commands under remains of sector "B" troops and volunteer units in Ilovaisk. He emphatically recommended to Khomchak divide all troops on small parties and to break through when night will fall. But Khomchak said, he do not ready to take responsibility for this. Then Muzhenko said that because situation is critical, he can't to order something to Khomchak, which locates there and watchs situation with own eyes and let Khomchak will assume a decision according of current situation. So Khomchak assumed to drive through "green corridor". He made a deal with Russians - at dawn UKR forces will line up in two columnes and with shrouded main weapons on armor proceed to Novokaterynivka village, where have to give Russian POWs back and go out from encirclement. But when morning of 29th became, in 6:00 Russians sent a truce envoy which transfered to Khomchak "disarm and leave" demand. What happened further is not clear, Russians under various prtexts were shifting time of moving start all farther and farther. Later we knew that in this time Russian troops hurriedly dug in along our rotes. In 8:15 Russian vehicles with white flags leaded our columnes, but through several kilomiters its sharpely have jerked to own positions and our columns turned out under fire... In Dnipro city since that masacre have burried unrecognized several dozens of bodies. Some of them belongs to Russian regular and volunteers POWs killed by own fire. Russian command has sacrifiсed them in order to destroy UKR forces.     

Edited June 20, 2017 by Haiduk

[DreDay]

Thank you for the explanation. I knew about 2 Russian VDV POWs, as well as 4 taken later; but I was under impression that they were all released. Do you have any info to the contrary? Also, if I may ask - what is your gut feeling about the overall casualty count in Ilovaysk?

[Haiduk]

20 hours ago, DreDay said:

Thank you for the explanation. I knew about 2 Russian VDV POWs, as well as 4 taken later; but I was under impression that they were all released. Do you have any info to the contrary? Also, if I may ask - what is your gut feeling about the overall casualty count in Ilovaysk?

Total during Ilovaisk battle were captured 17 Russian regulars. All were turned back or exchaged on our captured military. But soldiers and officers, who survived this "green corridor" said they have other captured "Russians". Who they were - volunteers or "vacationers", or regulars ? Unknown.

About casualties. What do you means - overall from 6th Aug - start of battle, including attempt of breackthrough of encirclement  or casualties during 29-30th Aug during "green corridor" passing and hunting for dispersed soldiers ?

Edited June 21, 2017 by Haiduk

[DougPhresh]

Guess what was just spotted in Syria...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

It's Judgement Day! 

Actually, looking at the picture carefully, that is a rather odd Terminator.....It appears to have a T2 turret on a T1 hull. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[HUSKER2142]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

It's Judgement Day! 

Actually, looking at the picture carefully, that is a rather odd Terminator.....It appears to have a T2 turret on a T1 hull. 

The tower remains the same, only the launchers were placed both on the T-2.

[Kinophile]

On 2017-6-21 at 1:55 PM, Haiduk said:

Total during Ilovaisk battle were captured 17 Russian regulars. All were turned back or exchaged on our captured military. But soldiers and officers, who survived this "green corridor" said they have other captured "Russians". Who they were - volunteers or "vacationers", or regulars ? Unknown.

About casualties. What do you means - overall from 6th Aug - start of battle, including attempt of breackthrough of encirclement  or casualties during 29-30th Aug during "green corridor" passing and hunting for dispersed soldiers ?

Has anyone tried to model/game/scenario actual battles from the war? 

[Haiduk]

9 hours ago, kinophile said:

Has anyone tried to model/game/scenario actual battles from the war? 

I will try to do that, but after module issue. There is one trouble in real ATO operations modelling - its mostly not playable in usual CM sense. Huge spaces, mostly low troops density, many many many mortars and artillery fire, long time fire contact with relatively low level of losses, when after several KIA/WIA attack usually were stopping. For example, diring Debaltsevo operation there was battle for Novoorlovka village - our platoon two days withstanded against about company of enemy. Reinforcements from neighbor VOPs were coming in forces of squad and then were returning back. Two days of real fight. And 2 KIA form our side. How much time would occupie standard mission "take the village with company against platoon"? )  

Edited June 28, 2017 by Haiduk

[Kinophile]

On 28/06/2017 at 3:44 AM, Haiduk said:

I will try to do that, but after module issue. There is one trouble in real ATO operations modelling - its mostly not playable in usual CM sense. Huge spaces, mostly low troops density, many many many mortars and artillery fire, long time fire contact with relatively low level of losses, when after several KIA/WIA attack usually were stopping. For example, diring Debaltsevo operation there was battle for Novoorlovka village - our platoon two days withstanded against about company of enemy. Reinforcements from neighbor VOPs were coming in forces of squad and then were returning back. Two days of real fight. And 2 KIA form our side. How much time would occupie standard mission "take the village with company against platoon"? )  

Yes, many fights have been low density, extended timeframe. 

But there have been certain flashpoints, though, that were high intensity, high density, short time frames - the breakout from Ilovaisk you describe above, the last phase of assaults on Donetsk Airport (of which there is a superb map in progress), various assaults on Debaltsev' and the final breakout from that city. 

I guess I'm angling towards an almost historical approach, where the scenarios are designed to follow the general flow of tactical events.