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My original comment in relationship to this idea was based on the idea of asymmetrical warfare scenarios where the recovery team are unaware that they will be involved in a fire-fight until it starts.

No Tiger I or Tiger II chassis were converted to ARVs as far as I'm aware.....A pair of Tiger(P) chassis were so converted (don't recall off-hand if they became Ferdinands first) and assigned to sJgPzAbt 653 along with a single Tiger(P) command tank.

22202489774_6be2c94665_b.jpg

Recovering Tigers would possibly be the prime example of recovery under fire during WWII.....They were precious!

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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IICptMillerII andd DougPhresh,

While I'll be the first to admit that tank and other AFV recoveries can be protracted affairs, the fact remains that tanks were retrieved under fire--starting in World War I. It's there big as day on Page 17 of Zaloga's German Panzers 1914-1918. That same page shows this wasn't ad hoc either, but was instead a special purpose unit specifically assembled to recover British tanks from the Cambrai battlefield. Then there's an explicit statement in the Army Green Series, The Technical Services, The Ordnance Corps: From Beachhead to Battlefront, p. 144. "Battlefield recovery was dangerous work, often performed under fire..." 

Crusader tank recovery under fire

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030882_British-tank-retriever_desert_british-soldiers_jeep_winching_men-with-whistle_take-cover

The we have an account from the driver of a M31 Sherman ARV in which there are multiple events involving working on or evacuating tanks under fire. Excellent read.

http://www.mcall.com/news/all-josephanfuso-story.html

Bold mine. Naha was on Okinawa and was the site of ferocious combat.

Combat Bulletin Number 13 
(Action in Okinawa)


1. Action in Okinawa: US Marines drive to clear the northern section of Okinawa. A US fighter takes out a Japanese plane after a short dogfight. Elements of the 1st and 6th Marine Divisions encounter scattered Japanese resistance during their drive north. Bombing of Okinawa by land and ship-based planes softens up Japanese resistance. Elements of the 382nd Infantry, 96th Division attack Japanese position on Table Top Ridge. US forces flush out and blow up hillside caves. Flamethrowing tanks of the 713th Tank Battalion lead the attack on Sawtooth Ridge. Tanks teams (composed of armor and infantry units) lead the charge on Rocky Crag Ridge. A US tank is hit, and the wounded men are evacuated under fire. US personnel inspect captured Japanese defenses (concrete pillboxes, tunnels and tank traps) in the hills and ridges of Okinawa. A plane carrying Admiral Nimitz and Marine General Vandergrift arrives at an Okinawa airport. Nimitz and Vandergrift take an inspection tour of Okinawa, and visit the 77th Division and 107th Army headquarters. 2. 300 Japanese stage a surprise attack on Seabees on the western shores of Okinawa March 26th. 3. The 592nd Amphibious Engineers move in for a landing on Carabao Island. 4. Demonstrations of American tanks overcoming tank obstacles. 5. Allied anti-aircraft guns shoot down a Nazi V-1 over Antwerp. 6. Airborne Supply Base: A C-47 is loaded for an air drop. The 490th Quartermaster Depot Company in action in England. 7. The last great air raid on Germany: RAF bombers drop 1000- and 1400-pound bombs on Helgoland and Berchtesgaden. The capture of Raman; the first up-close look at the vaunted German U-boat pen. American personnel capture their first undamaged German jet fighter: the ME-262. The historic link-up of US and Russian forces at the Elbe; a patrol of the 69th Infantry meet Russian troops at a blown-up bridge at Torgau April 25th . Major General Reinhart at an official ceremony April 26th. 8. Fall of Rangoon: Elements of the 50th British/Indian Parachute Regiment board C-47s at Akyab Island May 1st for the invasion of Rangoon. The British 26th Infantry board LSTs at Rumree in preparation for an amphibious invasion of Rangoon. The invasion is unopposed. The 26th Infantry enters Rangoon and frees 1400 POWS. 9. Battle for Naha: Marine artillery supports the first crossing of the Osata River. Flamethrowers lead the attack on cave-infested Sugarloaf Hill. Tank retrievers in action under fire. A Sherman tank is hit by a land mine. Navy planes and Marine artillery bomb Japanese positions on Naha. 10. Borneo Invasion: American P-38s strafe the point of the invasion, Tarakan beach. Australian demolition and sapper teams clear the beach of enemy obstructions. Australian forces supported by US and Royal Australian Navy guns hit the beach at Tarakan. USA, 1945, B&W, 34 minutes.

Catch That Tiger, Chapter 13 has a Scamell in Tunisia racing up to a tank in which three men died mere moments before and "practically before the survivors could bail out." That's a Scamell in that CriticalPast link. The book is the story of a man personally tasked by Churchill to bring back a Tiger tank (Tiger 1)!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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13 hours ago, John Kettler said:

While I'll be the first to admit that tank and other AFV recoveries can be protracted affairs, the fact remains that tanks were retrieved under fire

Yes, as it turns out during the course of the largest conflict in human history some unorthodox things occurred. Just because a tank was recovered under fire during WWI/WWII does not mean that recovering vehicles is SOP. Killing civilians is regarded as bad, yet during WWII it occurred quite a bit. Does this mean that the wholesale slaughter of civilians is warranted? I'll preempt another ridiculous discussion by providing the answer: no. Just because something happens does not mean its standard/SOP/ok.

The fact is that recovering vehicles is outside the scope of what CM depicts on the tactical battlefield.  

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I have to agree with Miller, John. Stuff like ABVs and ARVs are much rarer now then they were in WWII simply by merit of usual peace time decay. There's only something  like 40 ABVs, I think there's something like 600 M88s produced but I have no idea how many of those are at current standard and still operation. Other countries would be lucky to have a company's worth to a brigade.

Though pictures of towing from Kursk are amazing.

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IICptMillerII,

Since I don't have any AARs handy for US or CW tank recovery units, and certainly none for Germany or Russia, am in no position to respond from an informed position regarding SOP on recovery under fire. Obviously, doing such operations while not being shot at would be preferrable. Nor do I claim to know what the situation is now for any of the named countries. From what he's said, it would appear DougPhresh is the closest thing we have to a SME, but he has yet to say a word regarding anything other than administrative tank recoveries.

Rinaldi,

That's the photo I mentioned! Pretty spectacular, isn't it? Also, it looks as if the T-34 is one of the few photographed in camouflage paint. Am not counting winter whitewash!

gnarly,

I remember seeing intel photography and reporting on the 2S1 based Russian MICLIC equivalent during my Threat Analyst days, though I'd never seen the training manual graphics. They look like they'd be right at home in a comic book.

 Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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