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I usually use infantry squad of veteran, high morale, fit, and +1 leadership conditions. Problem is, whenever they engaged against enemy infantry and get the 1~2 casualty, they get pinned down, and just run away to the other direction in the next turn. Even though I reordered them to get back to the line in the next turn, they anyway run away eventually, ignoring my command. It seems I can't prevent them when they decide to run away. The runaway situation occurs from the infantry engagement, not by the artillery shells. 

How can I prevent this cowardly actions? (I really wish to have political officer when I play redfor :angry:) Does the extreme or fanatic morale helps? Is it worth to invest the points to that amount of morale during QB? 

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Perhaps a better approach would be to have the whole line fall back to secondary positions.

You can put a pause order on them (press P 10 times or use the quick pause command). If they get into the shaken or panic state they will drop the order and retreat but other wise they should stay there and die for you. :)

I personally find I tend to try to hold a position just a little to long, usually by the time my guys are running back on their own I should have ordered a withdrawal the turn before.

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While I applaud the adjustment to morale and self-preservation, my feeling at present is that BFC has maybe gone a bit too far. As others have reported, all too often troops who are otherwise in good order are abandoning good positions and running into areas that are actually more dangerous to them. Also, in BS I am seeing tanks popping smoke and reversing as soon as they receive a laser warning, when actually sitting tight and returning fire might be the safer tactic. Anyway, I believe this whole issue might need to be looked at.

Michael

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5 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

While I applaud the adjustment to morale and self-preservation, my feeling at present is that BFC has maybe gone a bit too far. As others have reported, all too often troops who are otherwise in good order are abandoning good positions and running into areas that are actually more dangerous to them.

Yeah, this very unclear. Some people are reporting major differences, other people are experiencing not much has changed. It is not clear to me if there really is a difference or not. Remember they always did pull back on their own - even before becoming Shaken or Panicked. I am unsure how to test for how much has changed. My own experience is that not much is different.

 

5 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Also, in BS I am seeing tanks popping smoke and reversing as soon as they receive a laser warning, when actually sitting tight and returning fire might be the safer tactic.

So, CMBS shipped that way. Nothing has changed.

This kind of report feeds into my concerns that there is not really any difference but we are all "seeing" a difference because we are peeked to look for it. First by BFC saying they changed the troop behaviour and now by people chiming in that things are different. You are, I believe, the second person to say that tanks are more skittish than before and I am quite sure that is *not* the case. In CMBS they always have been - cause getting lazed = bad, really, really bad.

 

5 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Anyway, I believe this whole issue might need to be looked at.

Yeah, I'm not so sure any more.

I have been playing real games with the v4 engine upgrade for a while now and the only thing I am planning to investigate is if troops are more prone to abandon fox holes and trenches while under artillery barrage than they used to be. My feeling is that any other skittishness is unchanged, within the margin of error. I am reserving some judgment for now just in case :)

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14 minutes ago, kraze said:

Well... laser usually means that 3 seconds later you are getting a rocket in your face.

Exactly.

I wrote this up somewhere else but here are the exceptions to the rule "your lazer detector goes off you pop smoke and back away fast":

1) The crew is currently executing fast move order. This is assumed that the TC is trying to get to good cover and you are better off getting there than trying to backup in the open.

2) You are currently in the firing sequence and about to engage a target. This is assuming that you are engaging the guy that is engaging you - in which case you are better off getting the job done - ASAP.

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I have only two major concerns about infantry behavior in 4.0

1 - infantry retreats from good positions much too easily. I think the nature of the position (trench, flat ground, wall, building, foxhole, etc...) and the distance with the enemy should play a major role in the stay/flee decision.

2 - infantry faces in the direction of their movement after a retreat, thus away from the enemy. I think they should get an automatic Face command pointing at the direction of their previous position. A lot of "cheap" casualties could be avoided that way.

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8 hours ago, Erwin said:

It's understandable that tanks are very nervous about being lased.  What puzzles me is that the BMP's in CMBS are much more willing to stand and fight it out with tanks(!).  I woulda thought IFV's would be even more skittish when facing tanks.

IFVs can still make tanks ineffective. 30mm cannon can easily damage optics and turret and ATGM that follows will mess the rest. Not to mention that if it's not a frontal engagement (which it often is) - it can go downhill for the tank really fast. Of course how precisely IFV hits that tank is what matters - if a half of shots miss and volume of fire is low then, of course, IFV is screwed.

And up close IFV is, even if not deadly, extremely dangerous. I've had a couple of such fights in original US campaign where a few of my Abrams tanks were getting ambushed by BMPs at distances less than 200m and it never ended well.

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This is a recurring problem since the engine update. Even light mortar fire will cause troops to break and run from buildings, foxholes and trenches.

To test this behavior, a company of BMP-3Ms was able to rout a Ukrainian Battalion Tactical Group just by using those 100mm airburst shells on area fire. They didn't kill many Ukrainians in their trenches, but once they broke and ran from cover they were cut to pieces.

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26 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

This is a recurring problem since the engine update. Even light mortar fire will cause troops to break and run from buildings, foxholes and trenches.

To test this behavior, a company of BMP-3Ms was able to rout a Ukrainian Battalion Tactical Group just by using those 100mm airburst shells on area fire. They didn't kill many Ukrainians in their trenches, but once they broke and ran from cover they were cut to pieces.

Yes it was annoying from a design perspective; but I've been able to work around it with tweaking the motivation of units somewhat. It's only really annoying in deliberate and set-piece attack scenarios, which are few and far between in the CM series.

I'm hoping they make a hotfix to the AI algorithim that makes the computer crunch numbers a bit more about when to fall back and when it's more logical to sit and hold. One of the worst things an Infantryman can do is break and run while under armor attack from good entrenchments. I have no idea what the logistics of it would be but making it so the AI go "I'm in a foxhole, don't run until I'm legitimately panicking" would ease the burden on scenario designers considerably.

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21 hours ago, exsonic01 said:

I usually use infantry squad of veteran, high morale, fit, and +1 leadership conditions. Problem is, whenever they engaged against enemy infantry and get the 1~2 casualty, they get pinned down, and just run away to the other direction in the next turn. Even though I reordered them to get back to the line in the next turn, they anyway run away eventually, ignoring my command. It seems I can't prevent them when they decide to run away. The runaway situation occurs from the infantry engagement, not by the artillery shells. 

How can I prevent this cowardly actions? (I really wish to have political officer when I play redfor :angry:) Does the extreme or fanatic morale helps? Is it worth to invest the points to that amount of morale during QB? 

Seems reasonable enough to me. In real life a squad will probably bug out when it comes under heavy fire as you describe. They have, as you say taken a couple of casualties and are pinned down. Even veterans might consider bugging out under these conditions particularly if their cover is not great where they are. In terms of game play maybe it is annoying.

Maybe look for tactical solutions like putting another squad on overwatch and attempting to suppress enemy fire which would at least give the targeted squad a better chance

 

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16 hours ago, Erwin said:

It's understandable that tanks are very nervous about being lased.  What puzzles me is that the BMP's in CMBS are much more willing to stand and fight it out with tanks(!).  I woulda thought IFV's would be even more skittish when facing tanks.

That one has aways bugged me as well :-)

 

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23 minutes ago, LUCASWILLEN05 said:

Seems reasonable enough to me. In real life a squad will probably bug out when it comes under heavy fire as you describe. They have, as you say taken a couple of casualties and are pinned down. Even veterans might consider bugging out under these conditions particularly if their cover is not great where they are. In terms of game play maybe it is annoying.

Maybe look for tactical solutions like putting another squad on overwatch and attempting to suppress enemy fire which would at least give the targeted squad a better chance

 

I agree, I generally like the morale under Upgrade 4. It seems more realistic and forces me to use better tactics. The place where it seems off is only when troops run from hard cover, and especially when they run towards the enemy.

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31 minutes ago, LUCASWILLEN05 said:

Seems reasonable enough to me. In real life a squad will probably bug out when it comes under heavy fire as you describe. They have, as you say taken a couple of casualties and are pinned down. Even veterans might consider bugging out under these conditions particularly if their cover is not great where they are. In terms of game play maybe it is annoying.

Maybe look for tactical solutions like putting another squad on overwatch and attempting to suppress enemy fire which would at least give the targeted squad a better chance

 

 

14 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

I agree, I generally like the morale under Upgrade 4. It seems more realistic and forces me to use better tactics. The place where it seems off is only when troops run from hard cover, and especially when they run towards the enemy.

It was very long time ago I served in army, but I can tell you that is not realistic at all. Running away from foxhole or trench or well fortification position, without clear and direct order, would earns court martial and good years of army prison, especially even more harsher if it was during the middle of firefight. Plus, it is not realistic at all, that soldiers running away across the open field or open street without any cover, in the middle of firefight, showing back to the enemy fire. That is just suicide. They will be pinned down and will dug in more deeply, but will not runaway immediately when the bullets are flying right before his or her ear, like that. Running away in the middle of firefight because 2~3 buddies are downed? I can't imagine such behavior from any of ppl I served with. More realistic response of well trained army would be, first, try to smoke and pull the fallen buddy, and second, pour a lot of fire to suppress enemy again, and third, try to find the retaliation with full of hate and anger. At least I learned in that way. 

Same as artillery shelling situation. If they are in good cover, or in relativity better position, they should not give up their position. I'm not sure how many times I watched my pixeltruppens stupidly washed away by the mortar and artillery and following machine gun fire, in the middle of wide open street and field. They could live and fight back if they just stayed in the house and trench. And that is kinda 101 from the training school, that keep your head down and stay in your fox hole if the shelling begins, not running away like that. The only moment we need to run is when the chemical shells are falling. I tried everything during the command turn, but I was unable to stop their stupid 'ultimatum'. Current TACAI should be modified in a way to reduce such irrational behavior. 

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10 minutes ago, exsonic01 said:

 

It was very long time ago I served in army, but I can tell you that is not realistic at all. Running away from foxhole or trench or well fortification position, without clear and direct order, would earns court martial and good years of army prison, especially even more harsher if it was during the middle of firefight. Plus, it is not realistic at all, that soldiers running away across the open field or open street without any cover, in the middle of firefight, showing back to the enemy fire. That is just suicide. They will be pinned down and will dug in more deeply, but will not runaway immediately when the bullets are flying right before his or her ear, like that. Running away in the middle of firefight because 2~3 buddies are downed? I can't imagine such behavior from any of ppl I served with. More realistic response of well trained army would be, first, try to smoke and pull the fallen buddy, and second, pour a lot of fire to suppress enemy again, and third, try to find the retaliation with full of hate and anger. At least I learned in that way. 

Same as artillery shelling situation. If they are in good cover, or in relativity better position, they should not give up their position. I'm not sure how many times I watched my pixeltruppens stupidly washed away by the mortar and artillery and following machine gun fire, in the middle of wide open street and field. They could live and fight back if they just stayed in the house and trench. And that is kinda 101 from the training school, that keep your head down and stay in your fox hole if the shelling begins, not running away like that. The only moment we need to run is when the chemical shells are falling. I tried everything during the command turn, but I was unable to stop their stupid 'ultimatum'. Current TACAI should be modified in a way to reduce such irrational behavior. 

Sorry if my terminology wasn't clear--I'm including entrenchments as "hard cover." I completelyagree with you about anyone with a foxhole, a trench, or in a building, and I don't think that's working well in the game at the moment. But I like the new morale effects in general, for those who aren't in good cover. I like that attacks can fail in the face of enemy fire after only a couple of casualties, as the pixeltruppen are less eager to press on in the face of losses. And I like it when Green troops making a risky move under fire will go to ground and ditch my orders even without taking casualties.

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I think the new balance is better for more fluid situations, but I agree it's probably a bit much for prepared defenses as it is right now.  I think some sort of hold position command would be good so we could let the pTruppen know we want them to stay put whatever they might think about it, until of course they break completely.  For example in that Alexander house platoon defense mission, I had them in the only relatively safe spot, and they kept leaving it to die exposed in a piece of low ground among many of their dead comrades who also thought it was a good idea to leave the position I told them to be it.

Edited by cool breeze
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47 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

 I like that attacks can fail in the face of enemy fire after only a couple of casualties, as the pixeltruppen are less eager to press on in the face of losses. And I like it when Green troops making a risky move under fire will go to ground and ditch my orders even without taking casualties.

This might be a good thing when the attacking forces are commanded by a human player. Not quite so much when the AI is commanding the attack.

A human player will be able to change his attack-plan on the fly to adjust to the current sitution but the AI will be locked to the pre-programed orders regardless of how things play out.

 If the AI attack fails after only a few shots by the player it might screw up a scenario.

The AI troops should obvously not be some sort of supermen but if they break to easily it might be tricky to design succesfull AI attacks.

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1 hour ago, exsonic01 said:

 

It was very long time ago I served in army, but I can tell you that is not realistic at all. Running away from foxhole or trench or well fortification position, without clear and direct order, would earns court martial and good years of army prison, especially even more harsher if it was during the middle of firefight. Plus, it is not realistic at all, that soldiers running away across the open field or open street without any cover, in the middle of firefight, showing back to the enemy fire. That is just suicide. They will be pinned down and will dug in more deeply, but will not runaway immediately when the bullets are flying right before his or her ear, like that. Running away in the middle of firefight because 2~3 buddies are downed? I can't imagine such behavior from any of ppl I served with. More realistic response of well trained army would be, first, try to smoke and pull the fallen buddy, and second, pour a lot of fire to suppress enemy again, and third, try to find the retaliation with full of hate and anger. At least I learned in that way. 

Same as artillery shelling situation. If they are in good cover, or in relativity better position, they should not give up their position. I'm not sure how many times I watched my pixeltruppens stupidly washed away by the mortar and artillery and following machine gun fire, in the middle of wide open street and field. They could live and fight back if they just stayed in the house and trench. And that is kinda 101 from the training school, that keep your head down and stay in your fox hole if the shelling begins, not running away like that. The only moment we need to run is when the chemical shells are falling. I tried everything during the command turn, but I was unable to stop their stupid 'ultimatum'. Current TACAI should be modified in a way to reduce such irrational behavior. 

Sometimes people will do strange things when they panic.I am not saying what is happening is right but do you by any chance have a video of the circumstances? Was this squad in cover and of what kind? How close were they to the enemy? These factors could well make a difference

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1 hour ago, Chudacabra said:

This might be difficult to model, but one thing that might be nice is if infantry under artillery fire would run into a nearby armoured vehicle instead of running away.

Makes sense.  If I see spotting rounds, I tend to order inf to FAST move into a vehicle if it can be reached in about one turn.  Otherwise FAST towards some sort of safe direction.

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4 hours ago, LUCASWILLEN05 said:

Sometimes people will do strange things when they panic.I am not saying what is happening is right but do you by any chance have a video of the circumstances? Was this squad in cover and of what kind? How close were they to the enemy? These factors could well make a difference

People do strange things, I agree. Having been in a few tight spots in my time in, I've never seen anyone truly panic let alone break and run. Keeping in mind that this is a game, and I have no idea what would happen had we been staring down a Motor Rifle Battalion, I can still say I don't think modern western armies would have guys rout after a few casualties and light indirect fires.

Edited by DougPhresh
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11 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

One of the worst things an Infantryman can do is break and run while under armor attack...

In fact, this goes back at least as far as the earliest days of sword and lance. As soon as infantry began to break and run, they were subject to slaughter. This is why a large part of the training of successful armies was to discipline the foot soldiers into holding their ranks. The side that broke first is the side that lost and most likely also the one that suffered the heaviest casualties.

Michael

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