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Tank Riders


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4.0 did not bring in tank riders in Normandy either, the offical reason is adding the riders to the commonwealth vehicles wasn't done yet, maybe we'll see them in the next Italian module? not sure though, no one has said anything about it as far as i know. couple other upgrades would have been nice too, that didn't make it into the upgrade either, like mortar halftrack firing on map.

Edited by Cobetco
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Adding 'tank riders' to the game involves replacing and recoding all of the vehicle models. Its no small feat. There was a legitimate historical reason to include tank riders in CMRT & CMFB. In CMBN, CMFI theaters and in CMBS tank riding into combat wasn't really a 'thing'.

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Mortar HT firing on-map is in the game, though maybe not in QBs. You may need to build a fresh scenario to get it. Steve has an allergy to mortar HTs in QBs for some reason. Something I can't remember if its new or old, The T30 howitzer HT will now work as on-map indirect fire artillery using a spotter.

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1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

Mortar HT firing on-map is in the game, though maybe not in QBs. You may need to build a fresh scenario to get it. Steve has an allergy to mortar HTs in QBs for some reason. Something I can't remember if its new or old, The T30 howitzer HT will now work as on-map indirect fire artillery using a spotter.

huh would ya look at that. never would have guessed. probably because the model wasn't updated to show the mortar in the HT like it is in Final Blitzkrieg. kinda irks me now that they are firing an invisible mortar, but eight tenths of a good thing is still a good thing =). maybe BF can update the model in Rome to Victory

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2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Adding 'tank riders' to the game involves replacing and recoding all of the vehicle models. Its no small feat. There was a legitimate historical reason to include tank riders in CMRT & CMFB. In CMBN, CMFI theaters and in CMBS tank riding into combat wasn't really a 'thing'.

It was a "thing" in Normandy and Italy as much as it was during the Bulge.

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CMFB is not just 'during the Bulge', it will continue on to the end of the war where maintenance depots began welding ladders and handrails to American tank rears. Before Spring '45, though, I agree it was a much a 'thing' in NW Europe as the other places where it wasn't a 'thing'.

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I personally do not mind the absence of tank riders in this title or in CMBN. Infantry riding on tanks was more of a behind the lines thing anyways. Anyone remember the scene in Saving Private Ryanwhere the paratroopers get raked by 20mm anti air fire while on the tiger tank? The result of that shown in the movie is exactly why no one wanted to be on a tank when the shooting started. So yes, infantrymen will hitch a ride whenever possible, but only on road marches and the like, not during an attack or firefight. 

For the Germans/Russians in CMRT it does make sense to have tank riders, seeing as both sides did not have an abundance of motorized or mechanized infantry, the only way to keep Infantry with the tanks was to have them ride them into battle. Even then though, once the shooting started I can't imagine anyone would want to hang on to the side of the bullet magnet that is a tank for long. 

It also makes sense for CMFB for the Germans due to the same reasons in CMRT. For the Americans it makes sense for two reasons. First during the battle of the bulge there was so much confusion and chaos that any vehicle that could be scrounged was used as transport. Second, CMFB covers more than just the Bulge. It covers part of the late war, a period where allied supply lines were very stretched and motorized/mechanized transport was not as readily available as it had been just a few months ago.

I understand that being able to have a squad hop on a tank and be with it as it rushes around to flank the enemy in a specific instance during a battle is convenient, and thattroops riding tanks looks cool. In fact I think that's largely why many demand tank riders to be in the game. I just don't view it as that much of an issue. 

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On 16/04/2017 at 5:19 AM, MikeyD said:

CMFB is not just 'during the Bulge', it will continue on to the end of the war where maintenance depots began welding ladders and handrails to American tank rears. Before Spring '45, though, I agree it was a much a 'thing' in NW Europe as the other places where it wasn't a 'thing'.

I'm guessing there's a thin line between historical accuracy in terms of what happened across the theatre vs what happened once the shoorting started. CMx2 is more interested in the latter. Historical accuracy - yes tank riding once the shooting started wasn't as common on the western front compared to the east but there's certainly occurences of it being used to transport troops when other vehicles weren't available. Not to mention cases where unaware troops would be ambushed that scenario designers really can't model inside CMBN and CMFI at this time. The game engine has also progressed and where seeing a lot more larger maps being used now (well above two square kilomaters) that have plenty of 'peaceful' areas players usually need to traverse troops and vehicles through. This wasn't as much the case when CMBN was first released. We hit this problem in the Battle of Arracourt battles a few of us are working on. The Germans lacking transports hitched a ride on their Panthers right up to the point of contact as a result - we can't model that at the moment inside CMBN. Giving them extra trucks of halftracks would probably give them too many extra guns to point at the US defenders so isn't really an option.

Giving the player freedom to be silly and mount troops on the back of tanks shouldn't be ruled out just because it wasn't common on a certain front. Very stupid thing to do in most Normandy and even Italian maps/circumstances, you bet, but don't let that be a reason to reduce the tacticable flexibility on offer to the player - no matter how stupid. To paraphrase Napoleon...

"Never interupt a Combat Mission Commander when he is making a mistake." :D

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9 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

Giving the player freedom to be silly and mount troops on the back of tanks shouldn't be ruled out just because it wasn't common on a certain front. Very stupid thing to do in most Normandy and even Italian maps/circumstances, you bet, but don't let that be a reason to reduce the tacticable flexibility on offer to the player - no matter how stupid. To paraphrase Napoleon...

"Never interupt a Combat Mission Commander when he is making a mistake." :D

This is a very good and fair point. Maps have been getting larger (a good thing in my opinion) which means without having a flexible way to provide motorized transport to Infantry, means the battle is going to take much longer as the Infantry has to make its way to the fight. 

Dont get me wrong, the more capabilities available to the player the better. If someone is dumb enough to leave his Infantry on a tank that's exposed to heavy fire, well that's his loss and his enemy's fortune. 

However from what I understand, adding the tank riding ability to CMBN and CMFI sounds like a rather monumental undertaking, as all the vehicles have to be remodeled. We just saw how much time an effort went into overhauling the TO&E for CMFI. It took months. A project such as adding tank riders would likely also take months. Personally, I would rather BFC work on other things, like upgrades and future modules to the games than delaying all that just to add tank riders to two games. 

Again, it's not that I am opposed to having tank riders as an ability in the game, it's just that there are other things I would like to see released first, so tank riders is lower on my personal priority list. 

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On 2017-04-15 at 3:42 PM, Cobetco said:

huh would ya look at that. never would have guessed. probably because the model wasn't updated to show the mortar in the HT like it is in Final Blitzkrieg. kinda irks me now that they are firing an invisible mortar, but eight tenths of a good thing is still a good thing =). maybe BF can update the model in Rome to Victory

I hope so too! The M21 is working fine though! (Mortar crews still don't visibly reload but come to think of it, neither do tank destroyer crews :P)

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