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Mosul (Iraq) The small red-headed child of an epic MOUT map!


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Random placement via the AI, add the Triggerman & one or more of his IEDs to an AI Group.  In the AI for that Group paint one tile in a building in Setup.   Save and start in Scenario Author Test mode, when you click start you will see the Triggerman & any IEDs in the group jump to the painted square (inside the building).....The IED(s) will always be on the ground floor, but you can set 'Upper levels' for the triggerman if you don't want a suicide bombing.

This only works for AI controlled teams obviously.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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14 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Random placement via the AI, add the Triggerman & one or more of his IEDs to an AI Group.  In the AI for that Group paint one tile in a building in Setup.   Save and start in Scenario Author Test mode, when you click start you will see the Triggerman & any IEDs in the group jump to the painted square (inside the building).....The IED(s) will always be on the ground floor, but you can set 'Upper levels' for the triggerman if you don't want a suicide bombing.

This only works for AI controlled teams obviously.

Every day's a school day ... I wanted to do this in my Neptune Spear mission but never thought that a 'Setup' placement in an AI plan would facilitate this.

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19 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Random placement via the AI, add the Triggerman & one or more of his IEDs to an AI Group.  In the AI for that Group paint one tile in a building in Setup.   Save and start in Scenario Author Test mode, when you click start you will see the Triggerman & any IEDs in the group jump to the painted square (inside the building).....The IED(s) will always be on the ground floor, but you can set 'Upper levels' for the triggerman if you don't want a suicide bombing.

This only works for AI controlled teams obviously.

Good job figuring that out.  MOUT (or FISH as I suspect you call it) just got a little more dangerous...............:)

4 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Every day's a school day ... I wanted to do this in my Neptune Spear mission but never thought that a 'Setup' placement in an AI plan would facilitate this.

What??? Combatintman took notice of this!!!! :o  "Sigh" This is going to provide an opportunity for more friendly KIA in future scenarios isn't it?  Well, maybe @LongLeftFlank missed this information......... me and my stupid questions :D.  

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Having a bit of a design crisis with this one at the moment, the urban warfare nature of the map is making it a real struggle to get the job done with just eight AI groups.....On this map you could easily use three for a platoon.

In addition to which, this map really is a completely different place after the detonation of a couple of VBIEDs, they dramatically rearrange the scenery in a way I can't reliably model for succeeding scenarios.....Blowing up walls on this map really matters in a way it just doesn't elsewhere!

Help me Obi-Wan-Battlefront-Developers.....Only you can save me now!  ;)

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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22 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Having a bit of a design crisis with this one at the moment, the urban warfare nature of the map is making it a real struggle to get the job done with just eight AI groups.....On this map you could easily use three for a platoon.

In addition to which, this map really is a completely different place after the detonation of a couple of VBIEDs, they dramatically rearrange the scenery in a way I can't reliably model for succeeding scenarios.....Blowing up walls on this map really matters in a way it just doesn't elsewhere!

Help me Obi-Wan-Battlefront-Developers.....Only you can save me now!  ;)

 

As this sounds like you're doing a mini campaign I would chunk the map up into say ... four chunks/battles.  I would strenuously advise that you avoid any attempt to model damage that you think will have happened in a previous mission. I remember playing a campaign that used the same map twice and on the second mission on that map I started at a position that was behind a building I had already captured in the first mission on that map.  Needless to say it totally killed it for me and I didn't play the rest of it.

You need to find a structure that suits a narrative explaining what happened in between your (for example four) battles which then gives you the flexibility to model the terrain and start states realistically.  Because this is a city map with reasonably well defined blocks or areas, you should be able to chunk this up easily - a quick glance at the image of the map on page one of the thread suggests that three or four workable chunks/missions are possible.

Can't help with the AI groups I'm afraid, but again - if your maps/missions are manageable chunks, you are likely to have less problems and as I always say with the AI - don't be too ambitious with it and remember that it just has to provide a challenge to the player rather than win the game.

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"I started at a position that was behind a building I had already captured in the first mission on that map.  Needless to say it totally killed it for me and I didn't play the rest of it."

I can understand the frustration...  But, could that situation not be rationalized (in the briefing) by an order between missions to pull back and regroup/rearm - even though that meant abandoning a perfectly good position you had bought with blood.  That seemed to not be an uncommon situation.

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Cheers fella, I'm coming to similar conclusions regarding chunking the map (great term, I like it).....It's already quite small though and once the VBIEDs and Coalition air-support are unleashed in force it can end up unrecognisable. :o

I've tested quite a lot of ideas for this, but all of them are pretty costly in AI groups, 'Snow-Balling' will help in some areas, but it's just damned tricky to set up a plausibly reactive looking defence in such a complex environment.....LLF's original design and my own map changes make for an 'interesting' battlefield, that's for sure.  :D

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14 minutes ago, Erwin said:

"I started at a position that was behind a building I had already captured in the first mission on that map.  Needless to say it totally killed it for me and I didn't play the rest of it."

I can understand the frustration...  But, could that situation not be rationalized (in the briefing) by an order between missions to pull back and regroup/rearm - even though that meant abandoning a perfectly good position you had bought with blood.  That seemed to not be an uncommon situation.

Yes it could but in this instance the briefing didn't and it doesn't cover off on the eventuality that I could have levelled that structure in Mission 1 only to find it magically rebuilt in Mission 2.  For that reason I maintain that reusing maps in campaigns is a bad idea.

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10 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Cheers fella, I'm coming to similar conclusions regarding chunking the map (great term, I like it).....It's already quite small though and once the VBIEDs and Coalition air-support are unleashed in force it can end up unrecognisable. :o

I've tested quite a lot of ideas for this, but all of them are pretty costly in AI groups, 'Snow-Balling' will help in some areas, but it's just damned tricky to set up a plausibly reactive looking defence in such a complex environment.....LLF's original design and my own map changes make for an 'interesting' battlefield, that's for sure.  :D

I might have a look at the map again to see how I think you can solve this problem - PM or e-mail me if you like with what you've got so far and your concept.

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Will do.....It's a bit of a mess at the minute as it's been acting as a test bed for my various experiments (some good explosions though)!  :lol:

I've gone through the map with a fine-tooth comb since your last look at it, so hopefully what you see will actually be the final version.....I need to clean up the current 'Scenario' (as opposed to 'Quick Battle Map') version as there are scenario specific flavour objects included.

Actually screw it, I'll put it on DB as is, the current version has two AI plans (of five), the first sticks a suicide bomber in a building (with malice aforethought), the second drops him in in the players spawn (with malice aforethought).  The VBIEDs are a 'Snow-Balling' experiment and should probably be in a later mission as they seriously remodel the map, they behave differently according to which AI plan they are on. I had intended to add a Mi-35 to the Blue force to determine whether it could pick the VBIEDs out (they are uncon units and the initial population density is set to High).  I was hoping to use locating the source of the VBIEDs as a later scenario hook, and having the Hinds mark it out with a series of bloody great craters really wouldn't help much!  The other IEDs & ISIS units on the map are just a drop in and massively amenable to change.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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As noted elsewhere, I have trouble in general with the tendency of Cmsf buildings to pancake too easily under direct fire, so my own inclination would be to nerf down the HE and IED calibres to compensate.

Great work ginning up the 'movable' IED booby trap but I wouldn't use anything other than a Small bomb in such a configuration in Ramadi. Except for AQIZ, the mujahideen were not about deliberately demolishing the homes/families of their supporters. Fallujah, different beast of course, but Stalingrad fights don't interest me much, at least not as a designer.

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Ok so I've had a quick look at it.  I have chunked it into three missions (black rectangles) with suggested CTS deployment zones (blue polygons) working on the assumption that you are doing this from left to right

Mosul Chunks.jpg

The main point to note is that there are terrain gaps between the mission areas which you can fill with narrative and get around the dangers of magically rebuilt buildings.  If I am wrong and you're doing it right to left then I would adjust slightly but not too much.

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@Combatintman  Sorry fella it's right to left on this one.....I've just been experimenting and haven't uploaded the test-bed map yet, but I get the gist of what you are suggesting.  Minimum map size is 208m IIRC so I may have a little overlap on such a plan, but it's definitely looking the best way forward.

@LongLeftFlank  I've actually found a couple of reports of booby-trapped buildings full of civilians.....It's a nasty, nasty fight.  The suicide-bombers have 'Small IEDs' now, but a bigger jumping booby-trap or two is a reasonable possibility IMHO.

Guys, I've discovered the AI has limited ability to use the Blast command in CM:SF too.....Make of this what you will (it's about 50% the blue units make it through the wall in my tests so far) Play as Red in WEGO, Scenario Author Test:

[CMSF] BlastTest.btt

If the Blue units are fired on they seem to go off mission and never get back on it.....Still experimenting. 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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I'll go with something a little less Soviet first, but it's going to be brutal.....I think a Probe scenario into the IED infested hell-hole Qazah district would be a good start.  This followed by a Red attack, the seriousness of which will largely depend on the player's powers of observation in the prior mission.  I'm going to start sketching something out in the editor, but in the mean time I'll stick a link to my current messing around in the Mosul PM thread.

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15 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

"The odds are good, but the goods...." 

LOL I just noticed your member title City Works Manager.....   Probably been there forever, nothing gets by me....:rolleyes:

gawd I can still remember first discovering SL and that particular map board.

Edited by sburke
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"...doesn't cover off on the eventuality that I could have levelled that structure in Mission 1 only to find it magically rebuilt in Mission 2.  For that reason I maintain that reusing maps in campaigns is a bad idea."

I agree...  Am simply about not throwing out the bay with the bathwater...  Sounds like design challenges...  If you don't give the player the tools to demolish a building then that issue goes away.  If you mention the stupid high command orders that may find you having to pull back unnecessarily for the start of the next mission, that addresses that issue, and so on... 

I used to enjoy fighting on the same map in CM1 campaigns.  One could have (say) a huge 8Km long x 4Km wide map and fight on a "window" of that map which was the full width but could be made to display only a few hundred meters to several thousand meters ahead of you.  The "map window" would move forwards or backwards over the huge full map depending on the success or failure of the campaign mission.  Really miss that feature in CM2.

 

 

 

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I really miss the static maps too Erwin.

The problem here is that you are going to have to remodel the map to win.....Blasting walls is going to be a very important feature of the game and whole structures (and/or units) will sometimes vanish in a blinding flash (& shower of debris), otherwise it just wouldn't be Mosul. 

Combatintman's suggestion of chopping the map is clearly the way forward, now it's how to do the chops in a fashion that works convincingly.....There's also the issue that this area was fought over several times, but I'll cross that particular bridge when I come to it.

34 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

"The odds are good, but the goods...." 

That sums it up well!  :lol:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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Here's a useful guide to goings on in Mosul, the events of week two through week six are most pertinent:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/04/battle-for-mosul-maps-visual-guide-fighting-iraq-isis

Quote

Footholds were established in districts such as Gogjali and Karama before the westward offensive resumed on 4 November in the face of heavy Isis resistance. Advancing troops are expected to face a brutal street fight in heavily mined terrain, with booby-trapped bridges and Isis fighters concealed in tunnels.

Wikipedia's summary is here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016–17

The situation in an adjacent area (just behind the front line) at around the same time:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/05/battle-for-mosul-stalls-islamic-state-stronghold-iraq

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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