Pros and cons of on map mortars.

[Mark_McLeod]

The title explains it all. So if anyone can list some pros and cons for both sides they would be awesome. All I do know is that bring them on map gives you a little more men for when things get desperate. But off map is cheaper if I do recall (on vacation in France away from my computer so I cannot look) so if anyone one can shed some more light that'd be awesome thanks!

[Glubokii Boy]

1 quick pro each._.

On-map:

If the mortarteam have LOS to the target they are very fast to deliver accurate rounds on target.

Off-map:

I have found off-map mortar units to be better suited to handle area- and linear target orders.

[Pete Wenman]

OK I'll add 1 quick pro for each also

On-Map - on large maps the mortar units can move forward to ensure targets remain in range.

Off-Map - the units are impervious to any kind of attack

P

[Artkin]

On-Map - they look sweet!!

[A Canadian Cat]

Off map they get more ammo

[Xorg_Xalargsky]

On Map

+ cheaper

+ crews can be used as last-ditch infantry

+ can occupy objectives

+ can target quickly and accurately with direct or slightly indirect LOS (reverse slope of a hill, beyond the corner of a building, etc...)

+ can change targets quickly

+ (Germany only) HQ teams can have panzerfausts

+ fire-missions are always called relatively quickly (try calling a B-4 Howitzer fire-mission and let's have a chat afterwards)

+ can use each gun/tube independently at the same time

+ can move (and thus escape range restrictions, this is mostly an edge case though, I think only light mortars and early model rocket launchers have the possibility of being out of range)

 

Off Map

+ immune to attack

+ more ammunition

+ all types and calibres included (On Map only has light-medium mortars and light-heavy infantry guns)

+ cheaper per shell/rocket (little overhead, more dakka per point)

 

@IanL(purchasing my units as we speak)

[Mark_McLeod]

Awesome thanks everyone for all the help. I didn't know your mortars would shoot on there own if they see enemy as I usually keep them in the back! But all the tips are awesome thanks.

[Erwin]

I find that unless you have long range >500m, all on map guns/mortars easily get spooked by enemy fire and can die very quickly.

[Glubokii Boy]

2 hours ago, Mark_McLeod said:

 I didn't know your mortars would shoot on there own if they see enemy as I usually keep them in the back! .

A small point to note regarding on-map mortars.

They are VERY trigger happy. If you deploy them in a possition with LOS to the enemy side you may want to issiue them a small circular covered arc to prevent them from opening fire on the first enemy unit they spot and perhaps waste ammo on a target you may not considder very important as well as giving up their possition.

As Erwin mentioned - ones spotted they are prime targets for enemy fire.

[Macisle]

Here's a biggie for designers that has come with 4.0:

On map mortars can be used to AI Area Fire anywhere on-map within their range--regardless of LOS.

In other words, the AI can now prep a position with arty before attacking it at any time during a scenario.

HUGE (and being used in my upcoming scenario ).

Sure wish it would work with off-map as well, though. -Only works with on-map.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Macisle

[weta_nz]

Hi Macisle,

Out of interest do you know if you can get the AI plan to do a smoke mission after the 1st turn in version 4.0?  I could not get this to work in earlier versions.

[weta_nz]

Just now, weta_nz said:

Hi Macisle,

Out of interest do you know if you can get the AI plan to do a smoke mission after the 1st turn in version 4.0?  I could not get this to work in earlier versions.

 

10 minutes ago, Macisle said:

Here's a biggie for designers that has come with 4.0:

On map mortars can be used to AI Area Fire anywhere on-map within their range--regardless of LOS.

In other words, the AI can now prep a position with arty before attacking it at any time during a scenario.

HUGE (and being used in my upcoming scenario ).

Sure wish it would work with off-map as well, though. -Only works with on-map.

 

[Macisle]

13 minutes ago, weta_nz said:

Hi Macisle,

Out of interest do you know if you can get the AI plan to do a smoke mission after the 1st turn in version 4.0?  I could not get this to work in earlier versions.

Alas, you still can't do that. There is no way to choose between HE and Smoke. It uses the same AI Area Fire command (painting red squares) in the AI Plan as the other units.

[Xorg_Xalargsky]

There must be a way, I remember of a German defense scenario in Red Thunder where the Soviets send copious amounts of smoke in the first few minutes.

[Macisle]

1 hour ago, Xorg_Xalargsky said:

There must be a way, I remember of a German defense scenario in Red Thunder where the Soviets send copious amounts of smoke in the first few minutes.

The designer can use smoke at the beginning of a scenario as a choice for the opening artillery support. However, that is the only time that he currently has the ability to select it.

I'd love to see the ability to time delay the opening smoke. Also, it would be great to let the designer choose smoke as part of on-map mortar AI Area Fire. And, of course, it would be great to extend AI Area Fire capability to off-map assets, along with the ability to choose smoke over HE.

[weta_nz]

Thanks for confirming that Macisle

[Glubokii Boy]

9 hours ago, Macisle said:

Here's a biggie for designers that has come with 4.0:

On map mortars can be used to AI Area Fire anywhere on-map within their range--regardless of LOS.

In other words, the AI can now prep a position with arty before attacking it at any time during a scenario.

HUGE (and being used in my upcoming scenario ).

Sure wish it would work with off-map as well, though. -Only works with on-map.

Huge improvement indeed  !

[Glubokii Boy]

6 hours ago, Macisle said:

it would be great to let the designer choose smoke as part of on-map mortar AI Area Fire. And, of course, it would be great to extend AI Area Fire capability to off-map assets, along with the ability to choose smoke over HE.

Agree fully with this.

 

[Mark_McLeod]

After reading all this I find that off map mortars are probably better but on map just looks sooo cool!

Edited March 30, 2017 by Mark_McLeod
Spelling error

[Glubokii Boy]

2 minutes ago, Mark_McLeod said:

After reading all this I find that off map mortars are probably better but on map just looks sooo cool!

Kind of depends on what you need them for i would say.

You will soon find your own prefrences wich option fits best for different circumstances.

And yes ! They do look cool.

[George MC]

I like on-map mortars.

Overrunning enemy mortar batteries with AFVs is truly a special moment

[Buzz]

Air strikes on enemy mortar batteries another special moment

14 hours ago, Macisle said:

Here's a biggie for designers that has come with 4.0:

On map mortars can be used to AI Area Fire anywhere on-map within their range--regardless of LOS.

In other words, the AI can now prep a position with arty before attacking it at any time during a scenario.

Yes ? and a solid improvement for on map mortars.

Buzz

[Pak40]

On 3/29/2017 at 0:36 PM, Pete Wenman said:

On-Map - on large maps the mortar units can move forward to ensure targets remain in range.

 

Are off map mortars bound by range? In other words, if you target the enemy's side of a very large map can you actually exceed the mortar's range or even decrease it's accuracy?

[Pete Wenman]

Are off map mortars bound by range? In other words, if you target the enemy's side of a very large map can you actually exceed the mortar's range or even decrease it's accuracy?[\quote]

You can certainly exceed off map mortar range. I first encountered it when making the Shadow of the Hill missions in CW. Don't know about accuracy.

P

[Erwin]

I recall playing a couple of scenarios where the offboard arty only reached part way across the map.  I wondered is that range be set in the editor?  I thought offmap arty would easily cover an entire CM2 map.