IMHO Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 @exsonic01, kind of need no search at all May we play "truth-or-lie" game? Would you please list the "Ural's works" business units structure, what these BUs produce, what their buyers are and the situation at the buyer's end of the budget? Say, five years behind from now - it'll explain "budget cuts" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exsonic01 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Just now, IMHO said: @exsonic01, kind of need no search at all May we play "truth-or-lie" game? Would you please list the "Ural's works" business units structure, what these BUs produce, what their buyers are and the situation at the buyer's end of the budget? Say, five years behind from now - it'll explain "budget cuts" Stop chit chat, I can tell any procurement program of Russian will be under effect of their recent sequester. But I don't know how that will influence the T-90M program. If you want to dig in, you do that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 9 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said: My understanding is that air-to-air missiles have a limited pylon life, i.e. just flying around with them on wears them out quicker, so the Russians occasionally bring out an Amraamski or two just to remind everyone they have them but mostly keep them packed away for a rainy day. Except everyone remembers Thule... No one flies with, loads etc. ACTUAL missiles. People make mistakes, missiles fall, why risk all of this? There are inerts after all... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Has some good times in Thule, back in the day 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, exsonic01 said: Stop chit chat, I can tell any procurement program of Russian will be under effect of their recent sequester. But I don't know how that will influence the T-90M program. If you want to dig in, you do that. Well if you allow me to be blunt - you don't know what Uralvagonzavod is and what are the sources of their revenues. It's a complex structure and you try to generalize Edited March 23, 2017 by IMHO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) @Vanir Ausf B, well... "Pilon lifetime" and "show-must-go-on with actual missiles"... Just landing with armed missiles is very dangerous so no one does it unless really needed I mean in terms of cost structure it may be engine tear-and-wear and gassing-and-oiling budgets... But "pilon lifetime"... Edited March 23, 2017 by IMHO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Mac Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 On 22/03/2017 at 6:46 AM, Rinaldi said: As I said: I could set my watch to threads of this types. It's not limited to Black Sea. Every 6 months or so there is an inevitable individual with a bone to pick whom swings for the posts viz. the Panther, Russian SMGs (Why are my UBERMENSCH losing to these PPSH armed plebians!?) Actually I started this thread for the exact opposite, I was tired of smashing my opponent when playing US. Not just winning but winning by a huge margin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exsonic01 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, IMHO said: Well if you allow me to be blunt - you don't know what Uralvagonzavod is and what are the sources of their revenues. It's a complex structure and you try to generalize I gave my expectation, if you call that "generalize", fine, I will take that, but I'm not gonna buy any claims like "Russian army will upgrade 400 ore more T-90Ms in 2017 in real life". That is what I want to talk about in this issue. Of course, I can be wrong, and they can actually progress the upgrade program like that, but I think the chances for such event would not that high. ps) I know what "Uralvagonzavod" is, but I don't know about their revenues. If I have enough time I would love to dig in. Edited March 23, 2017 by exsonic01 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Douglas Mac, May I suggest you ask Sublime for a game? Believe he'll be quite good at recalibrating your perception of the Russians. This is particularly likely to be true now that the AI has been tweaked to make it more likely that a vehicle with both auto cannon and ATGM/s will choose ATGM when encountering a tank. Those BMP-2Ms, which were finally proven before the tweak to actually use Kornet, now like using it, so to speak. If I managed to repeat myself from some earlier post, please excuse the duplication. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, exsonic01 said: I gave my expectation, if you call that "generalize", fine, I will take that, but I'm not gonna buy any claims like "Russian army will upgrade 400 ore more T-90Ms in 2017 in real life" @exsonic01, well in the original edition of your post it was 200 - not 400 - and it was related to Vanir's post of 200 T-72 upgraded to B3 level annually May we close this line of discussion so personal to both of us? Peace? Edited March 23, 2017 by IMHO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForwardObserver Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 @IMHO Brochacho I'm not about to write you a book about either, but if I'm sending an emergency CAS request during a TIC, it doesn't matter which type of aircraft I'm working with, I'm notifying the pilot or the liaison of the enemy conditions on the ground, and that includes enemy AA/SAM presence and ingress/egress coordination. That information helps inform those involved how best to attack. An F-35 being stealth could attack my targets with an appropriate level of standoff to avoid your SHORAD while operating at altitudes that would expose a non-stealthy aircraft to a greater variety of air defenses. We clear or do I need to grab my finger paintings? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 1 hour ago, IMHO said: @Vanir Ausf B, well... "Pilon lifetime" and "show-must-go-on with actual missiles"... Just landing with armed missiles is very dangerous so no one does it unless really needed I mean in terms of cost structure it may be engine tear-and-wear and gassing-and-oiling budgets... But "pilon lifetime"... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exsonic01 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 1 hour ago, IMHO said: @exsonic01, well in the original edition of your post it was 200 - not 400 - and it was related to Vanir's post of 200 T-72 upgraded to B3 level annually May we close this line of discussion so personal to both of us? Peace? 200 or 400 doesn't matter, my personal stand is, I can't buy claim that 200 T-90M can be fielded within 2017 will going to good chance to be wrong. But I admit I can be wrong, there is no peace or not like that in here, I just raised my pessimistic opinion about T-90M upgrade program, that is all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, exsonic01 said: 200 or 400 doesn't matter, my personal stand is, I can't buy claim that 200 T-90M can be fielded within 2017 will going to good chance to be wrong. But I admit I can be wrong, there is no peace or not like that in here, I just raised my pessimistic opinion about T-90M upgrade program, that is all. As true as your statements are, the same can be applied to the AM. And Battlefront has no issue with issuing them generously in their scenarios. I say bring the T90M's and the Armatas! WOO HOO! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exsonic01 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 2 hours ago, IMHO said: @exsonic01, well in the original edition of your post it was 200 - not 400 - and it was related to Vanir's post of 200 T-72 upgraded to B3 level annually May we close this line of discussion so personal to both of us? Peace? More things to add. The reason why I'm pessimistic about 200 T-90M within 2017 is not only the budget, but because of new equipment. Their new 2A82-1M new cannon is bit different from old 2A46M-5 cannon, which would make more labor and time for the cannon exchange. Plus, to my best knowledge, they need more Malachite NERA to meet the demand, so they need to wait for new supply. And they are under sequester. So, for me it is hard to believe such many deployment of T-90M in this year. 30 minutes ago, Artkin said: As true as your statements are, the same can be applied to the AM. And Battlefront has no issue with issuing them generously in their scenarios. I say bring the T90M's and the Armatas! WOO HOO! Of course, CMBS is under already "hypothetical" story line, I think there are very good chance to see T-90M in CMBS. Maybe same rarity point with T-90AM? This depends on BF's decision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shift8 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I thought we were short on our smiley face and emote quota so I thought I'd chip in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) Yeah it was getting a bit unusual without the faces on this page I only count ten original smileys 24 minutes ago, exsonic01 said: Of course, CMBS is under already "hypothetical" story line, I think there are very good chance to see T-90M in CMBS. Maybe same rarity point with T-90AM? This depends on BF's decision. I'd imagine the AM would be more rarity points considering they share the same gun, in addition the AM appears to have a better armor package. Edited March 24, 2017 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 16 hours ago, Artemis258 said: In a current CM:BS game against @Doug Williams I'm guessing about 2 M1A1's at least mission-killed, probably at least 1 with a turret full of human-flavoured jam (2 pens, 2 spalls, and no return fire), and (last count) 4 dead Brads (plus one II think I tracked)... it's possible gents, it's possible! Yea, and it's possible your three flaming T-90s will light the sky as funeral pyres for your many Russian dead soldat. Not getting involved in the subject of this thread, as I really don't know sh*t about modern. Just ribbing Art a bit on our game. ;-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) This T-90SM video has been posted before, but I believe it deserves a repeat. Would someone from Russia/Ukraine/Eastern Europe please explain to me how drivers of these T-64/72/80/90 avoid getting their faces smashed when hitting an obstacle while only partially head out? I see no face pad, just cold unyielding steel. Believe I'd want a motorcycle helmet to do that job! Also, has anyone run any numbers on how the 2A82 gun and ammo stack up vs the 2A46 series? Regards, John Kettler Edited March 24, 2017 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 6 hours ago, IMHO said: @panzersaurkrautwerfer, could you please elaborate on how T-90 had ever had a chance of winning the Indian tender of old times? There were many cmpetitors and Indian MoD was pretty open. There's enough open-source information. Like if you believe crew experience means a lot in battlefield performance then how an insurance adjuster, beverage truck driver and a college student - all once-a-month or a once-a-quarter reservists - win against so many full-time Army tankers with everyday weapons practice Because the T-90 occupied that critical ground of "working" (unlike the Arjun!), and as historical T-72 users, they had a stockpile of parts available and the commonality of systems made it easier to train crewmen for both platforms. The T-90SM may totally be the next tank of the Indian Army, but the Jane's article from which all other claims of T-90SM spring from is clear that it's something happening over the next few years, not something available and in production time now. 7 hours ago, IMHO said: Can you compare it to UK/France numbers in today's capable tanks? As to this, the UK/France operate within a NATO context. The British Army will never roll in alone and unafraid into a war with Russia, they'll be right there with all the Abrams, likely the Leclerc, a ton of Leo 2s from various operators and the Leclerc I suppose. Russia will virtually certainly enter that war by itself, and it's producing tanks that still are well behind the west in the regards to the T-72B3, and will likely be on the offensive in most scenarios. Real life doesn't work by RTS rules. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 There seem to be two distinct discussions at once taking place in this thread now.....One primarily about the game, the other primarily about current/future tank deployment. Could we stick to the game please.....It is a game forum, not a geopolitics forum after all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, exsonic01 said: More things to add. The reason why I'm pessimistic about 200 T-90M within 2017 is not only the budget, but because of new equipment. Yepp. Production capacity could be a limiting factor but the budgets...  Uralvagonzavod is a complex structure - overall revenues should go south but it has nothing to do with tank upgrades. Moreover RUS MoD is pretty limited in its decisions in this area - they will have to upgrade. Edited March 24, 2017 by IMHO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said: Because the T-90 occupied that critical ground of "working" (unlike the Arjun!), and as historical T-72 users, they had a stockpile of parts available and the commonality of systems made it easier to train crewmen for both platforms. I'm trying to guide you to penetration test results of that tender Edited March 24, 2017 by IMHO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) @Sgt.Squarehead, you're quite right. Discussion starts to branch when arguments of real life become a part of game discussion Edited March 24, 2017 by IMHO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 1 hour ago, IMHO said: I'm trying to guide you to penetration test results of that tender Everything I've read basically says "past T-72 customer and good price" Do you have a point? I feel I've wasted enough time on google chasing phantom orders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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