Crews Re-manning Tanks - A Muddy Affair?

[jonPhillips]

Please forgive the pun, but whilst playing A Muddy Affair (which, BTW, is an absolute gem of a scenario) a couple of my bailed/dismounted crews ran into a sticky situation (cue groans from the front row)...

I had a bogged, then immobilised, Sherman with a perfectly healthy crew on my right, and an undamaged, dismounted Sherman in the centre.

*Lightbulb Moment*

I sent the bailed out, healthy crew across to mount up the Marie Celeste, but despite my best efforts, the crew wouldn't remount the undamaged tank, preferring to sit on the engine cover like it was a deckchair in the Italian sunshine - despite the Belgian winter climate.

Aside from the obvious attraction of lounging around rather than doing any actual fighting, can anyone explain why the crew refused to mount up on a perfectly serviceable M4A3, complete with a full ammo load and toilet bucket hanging off the rear?

[Holman]

It's an engine limitation:  armor crews can only remount their own original tank.

While it might seem frustrating under certain circumstances, it's better than the inevitable gaminess of players shuffling crews around to match the biggest tanks with the most skilled tankers.

[jonPhillips]

Great answer, explains the situation perfectly - thank you.

It certainly was frustrating, but given the two Shermans in question were almost 600m apart, I suspect what I was trying to do might fall into the 'gamey' category ;-)

[Warts 'n' all]

It is frustrating when it happens but Holman is spot on as to why it occurs in CMx2.. Just an historical aside, "A Muddy Affair" takes place in the autumn on the Franco-German border, rather than in Belgium.

[John Kettler]

jonPhillips,

Not only is frustrating, but it flatly prevents the well-reported practice of COs taking over the tanks of juniors after being unhorsed themselves. See, for example, Creighton Abrams. I know of one case from the Western Desert where this happened thrice in a day. Being able to do this is especially a big deal for cases which only a few tanks have transceivers, as opposed to just receivers. Though it's not so much of an issue in CMFB, but in the CMBN period , the overall situation was that only the PL and APL tanks in Shermans had transceivers fitted, in part because the US radio industry was going flat out trying to meet not just our requirements, but those of our allies, and simply couldn't produce enough radios. From what I can tell, circa BoB, we still didn't have all tanks fitted with transceivers.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

[Michael Emrys]

13 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Being able to do this is especially a big deal for cases which only a few tanks have transceivers, as opposed to just receivers. Though it's not so much of an issue in CMFB, but in the CMBN period , the overall situation was that only the PL and APL tanks in Shermans had transceivers fitted, in part because the US radio industry was going flat out trying to meet not just our requirements, but those of our allies, and simply couldn't produce enough radios. From what I can tell, circa BoB, we still didn't have all tanks fitted with transceivers.

This being the case, then there would not be many eligible tanks for a CO to transfer to. It might also have something to say about which crews would be eligible to make such a move. I'm thinking that no one below the rank of CO or ACO would be eligible to bump another crew.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

This situation is more complicated than perhaps some may be appreciating.  You are viewing the battlefield through the prism of the player who has full knowledge of everything he is in command of.  The actual troops doing the fighting have a bit of a different perspective.  You see a fully functional tank with no crew in it.  Why can't you just recrew it?  How does the crew in question know if the tank you want them to recrew is even operable.  If another crew abandoned it there is a good chance that they had a reason to abandon it so simply jumping into a tank in the middle of combat without knowing what the tank's mechanical status is would probably be unwise.  Maybe if the enemy isn't in the immediate area then perhaps you might snoop around to assess the situation, but even in those cases they typically drive the vehicle back to the repair shop rather than go into action. 

As far as commanders taking over another vehicle - sure that's considered standard practice and it is supposed to happen if possible.  There are a lot of complications that the troops face that the player doesn't have to deal with.  For one thing, how does the tank that the commander wants to transfer to know that the commander wants to transfer to it?  The commander can't talk to them by radio since he is no longer in his tank.  Where are the other tanks under his command?  Are they nearby?  Are they also under fire?  Climbing in and out of a tank when the enemy can fire weapons at it is a very dangerous activity.  Here are some first hand accounts of the 'unhorsed commander' situation.  Note that the example with the American commander seems to take place over an extended period of time - and even then he has to hitch a ride with a tank from another unit in order to catch up to the vehicles under his command, so while it may seem like he immediately jumps into a new tank in the way it was written, it is clearly a description of events that probably span hours.

Unhorsed Commander

Mine was the panzer at the point.  Since the stops to fire were becoming more and more risky, I raced towards the edge of the woods for cover.  A shell exploding in the treetops turned out to be our undoing.  The tree top fell down on us from a great height and hit the center of the vehicle in such an unfortunate way that the leafy branches cut off our visibility completely, the turret got stuck, and we were thus out of action.  We quickly turned back and forth but were unable to strip the monster from us.  I bailed out and wanted to get into another panzer.  In the meantime, however, two of my vehicles had driven forward past me.  They both were hit when they next stopped to fire.  One lost a track, the other kept exchanging fire for a while yet.  The fourth panzer had slid sideways into a shell crater and was also stuck.  The panzers were out of action even before they were really involved in any.

End

At approximately 10:30 hours, the fourth wave prepares for the attack.  This time, it appears, there are more tanks.  The same drama as before is repeated, but during the frontal tank duels an anti tank shell suddenly rips open, coming from the right, the floor of the chief’s panzer.  The lone tank, mentioned before, had sneaked close and while our turret is still being swung to the three o’clock position a shell hits the front right and like a flash the chief’s panzer is engulfed in flames.  Hatch covers fly open, the gunner bails out to the left in flames, the loader dives out to the right.  The chief wants to get out through the top turret hatch but is caught by the throat microphone wire.  He then tries to make it through the loader’s hatch to the right but bumps heads violently with the radio operator who could not open his own hatch.  The barrel, having been turned half right is blocking it.  The chief has to move backward.  He pushes the radio operator through the hatch, is engulfed in flames for some seconds, in danger of fainting.  Still, he manages the jump to freedom but he still has the steel boom of the throat microphone at his neck.  He cannot pull it over his steel helmet.  So he is hanging at the panzer skirt, almost strangling himself, while machine gun salvos are slapping against the panzer.  With a desperate jerk, he rips loose.  The wire, almost finger thick, dangles in front of his chest.  In the hollow, scene of the attack at night, the crew assembles except for the driver, Sturmmann Schleweis, who remained in the burning panzer.  He was probably wounded or killed by the impact.  His hatch was free, he would have made it out otherwise.  The gunner lies on the ground still in flames.  The crew covers him with their own partly burned bodies trying to smother the flames.  He was not wearing leather gear, but only fatigues since he was taking the place of the regular gunner only for the night.  The Regiment had to thank it’s commander Max Wunsche for the leather clothing.  He understood the value of such gear.  It was booty from Italian navy supplies and saved the lives of quite a few men.  The gunner died of his burns later in hospital.

 

Initially, the chief as well as the others, do not notice their own burns on their faces and their hands.  The tank attack is still rolling ahead it has not been stopped.  However, this is soon looked after by the other three panzers.  They seem not to have noticed the drama which just ended.  The excitement of combat holds everyone in it’s grip.  Almost helplessly the chief stands in the middle of the action and observes to his reassurance and joy how courageously the commanders, all NCOs, are doing battle and how well the shells are aimed by the crews.  Almost each shot is a hit.  They have been spotted behind this excellent cover, but only by their muzzle fire.  The embankment covers them, it would have to be a direct hit to the turret.

 

This attack too is repelled.  The hatch of one of the panzers opens.  A face looks out, barely recognizable blackened by powder smoke, marked by exertions, and shocked by the view of the chief who resembles more a baked potato than a human.  After handing over command to the senior panzer commander, an Unterscharfuhrer, the chief drives the wounded men back to the Regimental command post in the VW Kubel of the artillery commander.

End

As the tankers reached the north edge of town, Perkin’s tank began to draw heavy fire from large caliber guns some 2500 yards to his front.  After firing one round at the anti tank guns, Perkins directed his tank behind a small stone wall.  A shell hit the muzzle, forcing it into a violent recoil just as Perkins was reaching into the breech to clear out some spilled powder.  The breech broke his arm in two places, and the tank was bathed in flames.  The crew jumped out as Perkins cut the bedding loose; the men hastily withdrew to a building some 100 yards to the rear where they splinted Perkin’s arm.  Perkins directed the men to accompany him back to the tank.  He crawled inside to retrieve a secret code, while the others splinted Sgt Tim McMahan’s leg.  Hailing a nearby tank, Perkins rode ahead to finish the battle.  Corp Kenneth F Grogan, Perkins driver, told a correspondent for the Armored News, that the company commander was finally ordered off the battlefield and forced to have medical treatment.

End

Commanders report to me – we’re attacking – Flak panzers will swing wide to the right, then turn in and attack the village from the north when the frontally attacking panzers have reached the edge of the village.  All others, spread out wide and then at the village and into it at full speed.  There will be no firing, no stops to fire on the way!  Assemble at the church.  I will watch the attack from herein the Jagdpanther and if required will provide cover fire.  I’ll follow when the edge of the village has been reached.  Panzers March!

 

I stood in the turret of the combat ready Jagpanther and followed through binoculars, the progress which was almost like a drill.  Everything went well, then just outside the village an explosion.  One panzer stopped.  Anti tank gun or mine?  Down into the panzer and at the scissor telescope.  The gunner had already taken aim at the target, was waiting only for the order to fire.  An explosion, a hit to our own Jagpanther’s front armor plate!  The scissor telescope was gone, rivet heads popped off, ricocheting, crisscross through the fighting compartment.  “Back into cover!”  Right away, the second hit to the right drive sprocket.  The panzer swung its front to the left, but rolled into a depression in the terrain.  Luckily it was not burning.  Out!  Our own panzers were inside the village, out of sight, and without leadership!  Motorcycle messenger over here!  Onto the back of the cycle, no seat, only a carrier to sit on, into the village at full speed, following in the panzer track so as not to be blown up by mines.  Through the dawn we arrived unscathed in Deg.  My panzers had their hot moments behind them already.  They had encountered Russian assault guns, 10 cm, about a dozen of them.  The Soviets were surprised some of them were knocked out, others were able to escape from the opposite edge of the village to the south and southeast.  Two were sitting in the creek bed next to the bridge, the others rolled across it.  The highlight was that one of the Flak panzers had knocked out such a behemoth with its 2 cm or 3.7 cm gun from behind in the engine compartment.

End

Don’t count your chickens before they are hatched!  Our quick reaction had only partially ruined Ivan’s surprise.  He hoped to shell us when we were helpless in the minefield, but even on the edge of it we were not exactly in a good position.  The company was subjected to murderous anti tank gun fire.  Tiger 100 took a bad hit.  An 85mm armor piercing round ricocheted off the lower part of the gun barrel and penetrated the upper deck of the hull, right between the driver and the radio operator positions.  I stared at the hole in disbelief.  My radio had packed it in.  The driver, Werner Grasse, looked at me in horror.  I became aware of an unnaturally warm feeling in the area of my lower abdomen.  I was terrified.  A stomach wound?  I mechanically worked my way in through the winter coveralls and uniform.  In my underwear I found a big fragment, almost a cubic centimeter in size.  I was relieved.  Nothing had happened to the crew.

 

The company started to engage the anti tank positions.  For us, however, the turret would not move.  It was jammed.   Oberleutnant Adamek leaned down from the commander’s cupola into the fighting compartment and called to me: “come with me.  We’re going to 131.”  I said something to the effect that, “You can’t do that.  That is Oberfeldwebel Fendesack’s tank.  We have to use another one.”  The Oberleutnant, however, was already out of the tank.  I caught up with him on the rear deck of Tiger 131.  He sent me back to our own vehicle for his maps, which he had forgotten.  I ran back.  As I was standing behind the rear of Tiger 131 with the maps, the Oberleutnant stood next to the turret beside the tank commander in order to tell him and the radio operator to go to our tank.  At that moment, a high explosive round struck the turret of Tiger 131.  Oberleutnant Adamek was killed instantly.

 

While the attack continued, we rolled back toward the rear.  We ran into Spiess Haase.  He was all ready to climb aboard as tank commander.  It was only with difficulty that we got him to understand that we had been penetrated by a shell, that our turret was jammed, and that the damage could only be repaired at the maintenance facility.

End

Edited February 8, 2017 by ASL Veteran

[weta_nz]

Thanks for the great post ASL. For me (having not read many ww2 first hand accounts) it is a great reminder of the extremely limited info the actual commanders / troops have during the battle compared to our virtual birds eye view with exact damage readout etc

[John Kettler]

ASL Veteran,

Found that same set of accounts in a 2004 CM thread. The examples given are certainly grim, but I've read plenty which weren't. See for example, Crisp's Brazen Chariots. One directly pertinent to CMFB is from the guy whose King Tiger got stuck in a house while apparently trying to avoid bazooka fire, but then couldn't back out. He waved down the next King Tiger, got in and went forward with the column. Obviously, it's one thing to do this drill from many hundreds of meters plus away from the foe and quite another to do it at close range. One I haven't quite figured out is accounts of a Tiger 1 picking up the entire crew of a disabled one and leaving the field, apparently buttoned up, no less! Believe there are several such instances recounted in Carius's Tigers in the Mud. Must've been crowded in there. By contrast, the regs in Russia required crews of disabled tanks to stay with them if not in them. HSU Loza talks about loving the Emcha because he was less likely to die from ammo explosion while positioned beneath the burning tank. Yes, you read that correctly. I've seen an account from a PL for ATO T-34/76s in which his tank hit a mine while attacking prepared German defenses, in an attack which got cut up, so badly it stalled for a time.He spent some four harrowing hours with his crew in an immobilized tank before repair crews found him and installed a new road wheel on the spot, after which he resumed operations.

Regards,

John Kettler

[A Canadian Cat]

Agreed, great post @ASL Veteran.

[MG TOW]

There is a true tank story on the series greatest tank battles behind enemy lines. I've also read about this one in other accounts. It's about the Sherman tank that has a late start from its platoon due to a frozen transmission. Once they get the tank started they never link up. The crew spends the night with their tank parked off to the side of a road with the turret askew and barrel down. They can hear the volksgrenadiers marching past them in the night saying things like panzer kaput. The point is if a tank appears abandoned on the battlefield it is assumed it's for a good reason, panzer kaput. In the heat of battle no one will crawl into the hatch to see if it is still working, unless they are the crew that abandoned it.

[cool breeze]

I think Steve mighta said that the way we have it now is sort of a feature to keep us from gamily switching things around too much.

 

But I think it would be pretty cool if we could.

Edited February 10, 2017 by cool breeze

[weta_nz]

Maybe if it was random that you could re-man a tank with a different crew. Like every turn you could try but the crew may not do it....Probably not worth the effort to code tho and I could imagine lots of complaints that it doesn't work because no one reads manuals?

[Bulletpoint]

I'm fine with how it works currently, but an idea would be allowing you to switch crews around as long as it was between the same type and model of vehicle.

So you could buy two tigers, one green and one veteran, and switch the crews around as you pleased, but the end result to you would be the same.

This would also represent crews not necesarily being familiar with the different controls of a different tank.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Bulletpoint

[ASL Veteran]

There are a lot of aspects of crew behavior that could be looked at, but I think it would be helpful to keep in mind that tank and crew behavior in Combat Mission are nowhere near what might be considered 'actual' or 'normal' behavior according to the personal accounts that I have read.  Keep in mind that these tanks that were being operated during WW2 were known to go up in flames fairly easily and quickly.  Tanks and crews in Combat Mission are almost robotic in many respects and so what you, the player, sees as normal while playing Combat Mission should be viewed through that prism.  I would personally like crew and tank behavior to better represent what I would consider to be normal behavior, but I am also aware that many players would find actual tank and crew behavior to be frustrating and unenjoyable from a game play standpoint.  I think it might be helpful to list a few points about where reality and game diverge

1. Vehicles were assigned a crew and it would probably be uncommon for a crew of one vehicle to exchange vehicles with another crew during combat.  I can't say that it never happened, but I am confident that something like that would be improbable.  The only exception would be in the case of a commander trying to remain in the fight, but as I hope I showed above even in those situations it isn't necessarily as simple as we might hope or expect.  Even in the case of a commander though, the commander doesn't typically take his entire crew with him.  He typically assumes command of the crew that was already in the vehicle that he is taking over.  Sure, if the crews are back at the maintenance depot sometimes the crew assignments could change.  However, that's not what we are talking about within the context of a Combat Mission quick battle or scenario.

2. Once a crew bails out of a vehicle they don't typically stick around unless circumstances dictate otherwise.  In Combat Mission your crew bails out of their tank and then what happens?  They typically stand around and the player moves them about the battlefield as he sees fit.  Well that's not normally the way it works.  The pattern of behavior for a bailed out crew is first to escape the vehicle, second to check for who made it out of the vehicle, third they would move to a covered location.  Once in a covered location they would treat any wounded and then remove themselves from the battlefield either to bring wounded crew members to an aid station or to rejoin their unit wherever their maintenance section is located.

3. Crews that involuntarily bail out of a tank that was hit by enemy fire are almost never armed.  They evacuate the vehicle so quickly that there simply isn't time to grab anything on their way out.  Crews also don't typically wear a lot of stuff that can get caught on the various projections inside of the vehicle and so even wearing a pistol might be considered uncommon.

4. A tank that takes a penetrating hit by enemy fire but is not destroyed will typically leave the battlefield.  This is especially true if a crewman is injured or killed.  If the vehicle is still mobile the tank will typically turn around and drive away.  When a tank is immobilized whether or not the crew bails out or remains in the vehicle depends on a lot of different circumstances and it is more difficult to discern a pattern of behavior.  Sometimes the crew remains in the vehicle and sometimes they bail out.  It just depends on the situation and the crew. 

To put this in Combat Mission terms, the entire situation being discussed where you have crews laying around on the battlefield with no tanks, and fully functional tanks laying about the battlefield with no crews is a situation that is almost entirely fictional and specific to the game Combat Mission.  Most vehicles that are abandoned will have something wrong with them.  Not all for sure, but most.  Certainly a random soldier or crew seeing an abandoned vehicle on the battlefield would have cause to assume that the vehicle was inoperable in some way.  Now there are personal accounts of crews encountering abandoned vehicles on the battlefield, but these are typically cases where a tank might be driving to the rear and they see a tank that belongs to a platoon mate and they check it out to see if any of their friends are dead.  Infantrymen might check an abandoned vehicle for rations or ammunition as well.  German soldiers thought American tank crews lived like kings with all the stuff they had hanging on their vehicles.  Certainly all the accounts I have read are taking place without the abandoned vehicle being under fire at the time the vehicle is being inspected.  Tanks sitting around taking multiple penetrating hits without flinching is also a fictional construct of the Combat Mission game.  After the first penetrating hit, the tank would leave the battlefield if it wasn't immediately destroyed as long as it was possible to do so. 

[ASL Veteran]

Tank is hit and is destroyed

Just so you guys don't have to take my word for it, what does a crew do when their tank is hit and destroyed?  Essentially the crew bails out and they are out of the fight.  My comments will be in italics.

 

After inspecting our target, discussing possible danger spots and driving tactics, we mounted and informed Arno, our gunner, Karl, our loader, and Egon, the radio operator.  Their first combat action was now before them.  Ready to go, ready to fire.  ‘Panzer March!”  Our nerves tight to the breaking point, each alone with his thoughts, complete silence inside the vehicle, only the engine was humming.  So we crawled and crept slowly toward the hill top.  What was waiting for us on the rear slope?  Otto was standing in his hatch.  ‘Slowly, a little higher!  Stop!  Turret three o’clock, aim at the edge of the woods!  Again, nothing, Helmut, let’s go, march!”  I geared up and opened the throttle all the way.  We crested the hilltop.  I spotted the edge of the woods and steered toward its left corner.  We wanted to go around it so we could see what was behind it. 

 

Then, a violent rattle on the outer walls, machine gun and rifle fire.  Our turret MG was firing.  I recognized a rapidly firing enemy machine gun, spotted the flat helmets.  De clutching on the right, aiming the hull MG, firing – all that happened in a flash.  There, at the corner of the woods, enemy soldiers moving a gun into position!  Report to the turret again aiming the hull MG.  Our gun was firing with the Panzer moving at full speed.  ‘Stop! Stop! Back! Back! Faster!’  Otto shouted that order.  I knew the engine was at full speed, it could not go backward any faster.  I turned toward the instruments, we were way past the maximum allowable number of revolutions, the time was sixteen minutes before sixteen hours.  Just as I was about to look out of my sight slit I was blinded by a flash of light.  There was a bang as if a soda pop bottle had smashed into a stone floor.  Hit to the forehead, alive, those were my thoughts.  Then, the Panzer was shaking as if in the grip of a giant fist, brightness, howling, shrieking noises, totally inhuman.  Smell of sulfur, complete silence. 

 

Then Otto’s voice: “Bail out, Panzer’s on fire!”  I unlatched my hatch, pushed it open, it moved only a few centimeters.  Flames immediately blazed through the opening.  The turret skirt sat above.  I saw how Egon, our radio operator, pulled his legs from his hatch.  That was the way.  Across the transmission, the radio, my breath stopped, it was getting so hot, I had to get out, I could not take it anymore.  Far away, a face.  Arms stretching toward me.  Shouts: “Helmut, get out!”  Pulling, ripping, fresh air.  I was outside, jumped off, letting myself drop.  Egon had come back and pulled me out.  Thanks comrade!  Egon helped me to get up, I was standing again.  Bullets whistled by and hit the hull.  We leapt to the side away from the enemy, there was Otto.  What about Arno and Karl?  Otto pointed to the turret, its side hatches were still closed and yelled: “Both were killed outright, I was still inside!”  I could not believe it.  Arno Eltus from Konigsberg in East Prussia, my gunner.  Since Hasselt we had been together with Otto, always in the same Panzer.  We lived through our first actions, victories, always the three of us together.  Now he was gone, just left inside the turret.  What a terrible realization.

 

Dark smoke billowed from the open hatches.  We ran into the direction of our front line.  Suddenly I heard: “Helmut, you’re on fire!”  I rolled on the ground, Otto and Egon helped extinguish the flames.  Again, machine gun bullets were whistling by us.  We ran and ran.  Finally we reached the rear slope, found German soldiers, houses.  A squad of soldiers addressed us but I did not hear or comprehend anything.  I could see but not recognize , felt pain, severely burning pain.  Then it turned all black around me and silent.

End

Once again, in this next one the crew bails out and they are out of the fight.  Note the jammed hatch.

 

We advanced further through the gently rolling terrain.  I Zug suddenly found itself on a wide open plain and under fire from Canadian anti tank guns.  Four Panzer IVs of my platoon were immediately on fire.  We in the fifth Panzer IV, took a direct hit between the side of the turret as we were making the big mistake of trying to turn while under fire from the anti tank guns.  We had been unable to knock out the Canadian anti tank guns firing from 1500 to 2000 meters distance.  The shell ripped off my Panzer commander’s leg.  He was Oberscharfuhrer Esser.  As I heard later, he still managed to get out of the turret.  Because it was a phosphor shell, the whole panzer was immediately in flames.  I lost consciousness since the rubber cover of my gunner’s hatch charred and jammed the hatch, preventing me from getting out immediately.  Somehow, sub consciously, I managed to crawl to the loader’s hatch.  I can only remember the moment clearly when I fell from the hatch to the ground, head first.  With severe third degree burns I walked back in the direction of our grenadiers following behind.  They stared at me as though I was a ghost, that is the way I must have looked.

End

Again, with this one, the crew bails out and they are no longer a part of the fight.  Note the jammed hatch.

 

Approximately 1000 meters ahead was a railroad station where some movement could be spotted.  I was driving already approximately thirty meters ahead of the company in a slow left turn in order not to fall behind.  At that moment after a muffled bang and a swaying as if the track had been ripped off, the vehicle came to a stop. 

 

It was quiet inside the vehicle.  I thought we had driven onto a mine.  When I looked to the left to check the situation I happened to see the turret being torn off the panzer driving on the left flank.  At the same moment, after another minor explosion, my vehicle began to burn.  The machine gun ammunition caught on fire and there was a crackling noise like dry firewood burning.   Since we were to push into the town, I had closed the turret hatch.  I could only lift it with the spindle but could not swing it out.  Paul Veith, the gunner sitting in front of me, had apparently been seriously injured by fragments from the hit.  Veith did not move.  I tried for a long time with all my energy to swing out the hatch.  I was only successful when I tried different height settings on the lift crank.  It had probably been damaged by the hit.  I jumped out, fell on the rear and was unconscious for a short time.  Then I saw flames coming out of the open hatch as if from a blowtorch.  I got up and tried to jump off.  However, I could not keep my balance and landed head first on the ground.  I do not know how long I lay there.  Then I got on my feet and saw to my left along the same line as my vehicle, other burning panzers.  Among them was Stagge’s.

End

 

In this one, the enemy crew bails out of their tank and is no longer a part of the fight.  In fact, the crew of the panzerjager completely ignores the survivors of the tank they just destroyed even though they run into a church that is only a few yards from their vehicle.

 

I stopped my Panzerjager at the intersection after the church and ordered the motor turned off so that I could determine the situation by listening.  Now and then I heard shots behind me, but suddenly , to the right of me and apparently behind the church, the roar of a heavy engine.  The only thing I could see was the corner of the church standing out from the snow covered square.  I suspected an enemy tank starting to move behind the church.  I had our own engine started and pivoted my panzerjager around by ninety degrees to the right.  In that position, I spotted a Sherman pushing out from behind the church, in reverse gear, some 8-10 meters away.  I ordered “anti tank shell” had the barrel lowered and when the giant was right in front of my gun I disappeared into my hatch and we knocked out the tank.  It was in flames immediately and lit up the battle ground and the church square for a long time.  Two men were able, limping from the tank, to flee into the church.  We left them alone.

End

 

In this one, there are apparently several panzer crews all hiding out in a shack.  They don’t stand and fight the Americans as infantry squads.  Nope, they are basically all huddling in fear in this shack trying to avoid capture and when the opportunity presents itself they all make a break for it.

 

The panzers of 1 Kompanie drove at the point, then followed our Kompanie, with Brodel as Kompanie chief.  Myself, I was slotted in behind Beutelhauser, my Zugfuhrer.  When I reached the vicinity of the church a gruesome picture was waiting for me.  Beutelhauser was knocked out in front of me.  We had both already crossed the second intersection.  When Beutelhauser was hit, I was able to spot the approximate location of the enemy twin anti tank gun.

 

Beutelhauser was able to bail out and reach safety.  His loader was killed by rifle bullets as he bailed out.  I moved my panzer into position behind a house, which provided visual and fire cover, without knowing right then what to do next.  Brodel’s vehicle stood next to me, burning lightly.  Brodel sat lifeless in the turret, he had been killed.  Along the course of the street ahead of me, all of the panzers had been knocked out, some were still on fire.  One panzer was still moving, I believe it was Freier’s.  It was able to pull back in the direction of the eventual Abteilung command post under my covering fire.  Some of the crews from the knocked out panzers who had been hiding in a shed took advantage of that opportunity.  They also went back using the panzer as cover.  They barely escaped being taken prisoner by the encircling American infantry.

End

 

Once again we have several knocked out tanks with crews bailing out, but none of the crews join the fight.  After bailing out they are essentially out of the fight.

 

Untersturmfuhrer Schittenhelm had just reached a protrusion of the forest, when a flash of flame as if ignited by the hand of a ghost, shot up from his panzer.  A thick heavy mushroom cloud of smoke covered the vehicle, two men bailed out.  Hauptmann Hils issued orders to take up position toward the three o’clock.  He stood in the turret of his panzer studying the map once again, to make sure of his exact location.  Then he fired a signal flare to mark the final direction of the march.  It died away on the terrain sloping downward to the estate.  We awaited the ‘March, march!’ for the attack.  Since nothing happened, I looked again toward his panzer.  The turret was burning!  Hauptmann Hils could no longer be seen.  The hull crew was leaving the panzer.  I recognized the driver, Unterscharfuhrer Bunke as well as the radio operator whose name I did not know.  It had to be assumed that the turret crew made up in addition to Hauptmann Hils, but the gunner Lorentzen, and the loader Krieg, had been killed.

 

Abruptly, an almost indescribably devastating fire from the American artillery set in.  The pasture turned into a plowed field, a number of panzers took direct hits.  Renewed and well aimed anti tank fire was directed at Untersturmfuhrer Engel’s panzer.  He pulled back about twenty meters so that the rear of the panzer stood in the woods.  From there he was hoping to have a better field of observation.  At the same time he reported on the situation by radio.  In the line of trees suspect from the start of the attack, he assumed at least two American anti tank guns.  Since he could not land any effective hits by direct fire, he fired explosive shells in rapid sequence into the tree tops in order to neutralize the American gun crews by shrapnel.  He was successful, several  Americans fled into the close by forest.  Immediately he rolled his panzer forward to the row of trees.  For the first time the view to the estate was clear and he opened fire on it immediately.  The artillery fire had continued at unabated strength.  Finally Untersturmfuhrer Engel was also knocked out.  The crew was able to bail out.  Only the radio operator Sturmmann Fitz lost a finger.  Chased by the artillery fire, the crew still managed to carry a seriously wounded infantryman out of the zone of fire.

End

 

These guys tried to run back but failed, so they ran back to their knocked out tank.  They were eventually discovered there by other tanks and those tanks helped the crew to escape back to their own lines.

 

We mounted the attack to the left of the road and closed in on the first houses of the estate.  The Grenadiers, however, were stalled and unable to keep pace with us because of the heavy artillery fire.  During that attack, one of Oberscharfuhrer Kretzschmar’s tracks was blown off.  We took one of his crew into our vehicle, and continued the attack with six men in the panzer.  We were knocked out close to the first houses of the estate.  Then we tried to reach our own lines along the road without success.  After moving back toward the spot at the estate where we had been knocked out, we managed to be spotted by our Kompanie, and split up into the remaining vehicles.  Since we were in front of the estate without Grenadiers, the order came to pull back.

End

 

Eight enemy tanks are spotted on the road and all eight are destroyed.  The crews of the vehicles simply flee after their vehicles were destroyed.

 

With four or five panzers, I rolled along a narrow path toward our objective.  To the right of the path ran a muddy creek with a lot of water from snow melt, its banks lined by poplars.  The valley widened.  To the right was a wooded hill, on our left, first a somewhat steeper slope covered with grass.  Then we spotted ahead of us the outlines of one or more large buildings; a mill?  Caution was necessary before we approached!  No guidance, nothing to be seen anywhere, neither friend nor foe.

 

The point vehicle slowly approached the huge building.  Suddenly it stopped and immediately fired.  ‘Let’s go closer – full throttle,’ I ordered my driver. ‘An anti tank shell loaded?’ – ‘Yes sir, anti tank shell loaded!’ the loader reported from below – ‘Attention!  Something is happening there – Gunner, open fire when target is determined – Distance 400!’  The vehicle at point fired .  Through my headphones, scratchy, the message: ‘Attention!  Attention! – Enemy tanks ahead!  Out!’

 

It took my breath away, and the cigar probably dropped from my mouth, when I recognized the situation: enemy tanks, some eight to ten T-34s were sitting close together on the path along which we were rolling.  Behind the building, dismounted, stood the commanders during the stop for orientation, probably in a briefing with their chief.  The luck of war was on our side once again!  I immediately ordered the two rear most tanks knocked out, the two at the point of the column were already burning.  The crews fled, under fire from our Grenadiers – who knows where they may have come from?  In no time all the tanks were ours.  The radios were still on, and one of us who spoke Russian took over the radio of a T-34 together with Ivan.

End

 

This guy bails out of his tank and feels lucky to have made it back alive.  His crew wasn’t so lucky.  There was no thought in his mind of standing and fighting toe to toe with the Russian infantry.

 

A network of trenches ran across the road and into the field to the left and right.  I posted two men with Panzerfausts in the trench and put an anti tank gun in position a little farther back.  On the left wing, we sat with four Panzer IVs,  Grenadiers in the trenches in between.  We were ready for Ivan.

 

A feeling of misgiving made me put on my leather gloves and button my leather jacket to the neck.  It was cooling off, and the leather protects from fire in one was knocked out.  I climbed inside, just as the gunner reported to me that the night illumination of the gun sight did not work.  That meant, with increasing darkness we would be unable to make out the cross hairs, to aim the gun at the target.  ‘For heaven’s sake – that’s the way they send it back from the workshop?  How could we drive back and leave the infantry by themselves?’  In the last light of day, I ordered the gun aimed at the closest tree along the road, distance 200 to my half right.  I was planning to fire when an enemy tank approached the tree.  It only took a few minutes before the enemy spearhead appeared in front of us, at the point three tanks, surrounded by a group of infantry.  In the meantime, darkness had fallen.  The Soviets were feeling their way forward slowly.  Then they were level with the trench, the ‘tank busters’ should be firing; it remained quiet.  A quick communication with my gunner, he understood the situation.  ‘Anti tank shell in the barrel’ – ‘ Can you still make out the cross hairs?’ – ‘No’ – ‘Then the tree will be the target’.  The Russians kept advancing, they must have passed the anti tank gun already and still there was no movement.  The lead tank was stopping right at the tree.  Very soon, it would move on and roll past us.  Therefore we had to fire.  ‘Open fire!’  The first shell raced out of the barrel – the flash of fire at the muzzle brake blinded me.  The Russian also woke up and one exchange of fire relentlessly followed the other.  We had no way of aiming and I could not observe the shells at such short distance in the darkness.  Suddenly an explosion inside our crate, and we were engulfed by flames.  Next to me, the signal flares went off, there were orange colored sparks and smoke.  I wanted to get out but was caught between the seat and the cartridge guard.  The rivet heads, which had popped off, were ricocheting through the panzer.  One of them caught me in the knee, but I only noticed that later.  Using all my strength I freed myself from the burning prison, finally made it outside and immediately heard the sinister ‘Urraahh’ from the figures rushing at me.  They were firing and racing toward the panzer which was burning like a torch.  I rolled off to the rear, fell on wet grass behind my panzer, wanted to jump up and disappear but could not do it.  My wounded knee refused to work.  But here also the courage of a desperate man who wanted to survive helped and I managed it somehow.  Barely fifty meters to the rear of my panzer I dropped into a depression in the ground and was safe.  My crew had bailed out, but instead of running into the meadow for cover they ran to the road.  I heard an unearthly cry, then dead silence.

End

 

I included this Soviet account simply for completeness, but I have to admit that I’m a bit skeptical about the veracity considering the description of the Hollywood type ‘Hitler Salute’ thing with the sentry.  You can judge for yourself how much credence you decide to put into the account.

 

Having waited for darkness we set off for the crossing.  Marder and I were covering the withdrawal with our two tanks.  We were the last to reach the pontoon bridge and had already crossed the most exposed part, when strong cannon fire struck us from behind.  I found time to tell Misha over the radio “We’re on fire!”  Then I heard his reply “We’re on fire too!”

 

The Germans had managed to set both of our tanks ablaze by hits on the rear.  One shell struck our transmission, and the engine caught fire.  At the same moment, flares lit up the crossing and the riverbank.  A storm of fire ensued!  There was no chance to leap out through the turret hatches – everyone would be mowed down.  We slipped out underneath the tank through the emergency floor hatch in the middle of the fighting compartment, having first grabbed the most necessary stuff: submachine guns, ammunition drums and hand grenades.  We also removed a machine gun, first aid kit, and camouflage cloaks, and then hid in waiting beneath the tank.  My entire crew was alive, not even wounded.

 

We had to find our way back to our lines.  We looked at the map in the light of a pocket torch, determined a route and headed out.  We noticed a column of smoke rising from the ground ahead of us.  Having approached it, we discerned a whole row of dugouts, with a sentry strolling about.  The German was scared at first, but Marder threw up his arm in the fascist salute: ‘Some of your own!”

 

The guard had just begun to raise his arm in response, when my gun layer Misha Tvorogov clubbed his head with a submachine gun and the German toppled over.  We didn’t throw hand grenades to avoid raising an alarm.

End

 

Here we find this Tiger crew bail out of their tank and they take their wounded crewmate to the first aide station.

 

Our four Tigers were supposed to traverse an area of terrain with numerous hedgerows.  I was hit while sitting by one of these hedgerows, probably by a so called hollow charge projectile, which penetrated the armor and sprayed a jelly like burning mass inside.  The turret was instantly filled with flames.  We had to get out, but I was held fast by my headset and throat microphone.  I bowed my head and ripped off the cables.  In those few seconds my hair was singed.  Everyone got out of the burning tank, although my gunner had severe burns on his hands.  We were soon able to deliver him to an aide station for treatment however.

End

 

The general theme here is that when a crew bails out of their tank after it gets destroyed their thoughts focus on escaping the tank as quickly as possible so they don’t burn to death.  Once out of the tank they look to wounded crewmates and seek safety away from the vehicle.  Once safety has been reached they take any wounded crewmen to get medical treatment and they are basically out of the fight.  In Combat Mission terms, I would characterize it as the crew bailing out, running for a covered location, and then disappearing from the battlefield in the same manner as surrendering troops disappear now.  Once a tank crew bails from its vehicle, account after account after account indicates that they are out of the fight.  This is the sort of behavior that would be expected to happen and could be considered the norm.  One other aspect that Combat Mission lacks is jammed or blocked hatches.  As it is now, the only crewmembers who are killed or injured are those killed or injured by the round that penetrates the tank.  I think it would be good if there is a chance that a crewmember doesn’t make it out of the tank, even though he was uninjured prior to attempting to bail out.

[Holman]

Good examples!  Thanks for putting that together.

Indeed, one of the basic issues here is the player's God-like ability to see the whole battlefield and to direct far-flung units using that knowledge.  When a tank crew bails out, even if they're not panicked or shaken or preoccupied with being wounded, how would they even know about the empty-but-functional vehicle on the other side of the trees five hundred yards away?

[Michael Emrys]

9 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

In Combat Mission your crew bails out of their tank and then what happens?  They typically stand around and the player moves them about the battlefield as he sees fit.

I have seen something different. Usually after the unwounded crew bail out, they are panicked and run for cover towards the rear. I've been seeing this since soon after BN came out, so it is not something just introduced by the v4 upgrade. One of the first examples I saw and one that sticks in my mind was an instance of an 81mm shell exploding on the turret top of a Sherman. The tank did not suffer any disabling damage and none of the crew were wounded, but they freaked. They bailed out and ran towards the rear for over 200 meters before stopping from exhaustion. A couple of minutes later they had recovered enough from their panicked state that I once again had a measure of control over them, but they were still too tired to move. It was several minutes more before I was able to urge them back to their tank and into it, which is when I confirmed that it was still a runner. By this time the battle had already passed its crisis and moved on, and this crew was too brittle to be much use anyway.

This was possibly the most extreme example of what I am talking about, but it shares some features that have proven typical. Namely, the crew is nearly always out of my control for one or several minutes, and its morale is usually degraded to the point of not being useful in a fight. This I regard as perfectly realistic.

Michael

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

<Snip> the crew is nearly always out of my control for one or several minutes, and its morale is usually degraded to the point of not being useful in a fight. This I regard as perfectly realistic.  

I agree with you that the behavior you describe is perfectly realistic.  In my experience the behavior has a wide range of effects that is generally not as realistic.  Also this conversation gave me the excuse to post the below screenshot again.  Said screenshot is from a PBEM.  My opponent had a Panther tank destroyed.  About 7 game minutes later the below fire team shows up.  Somewhere along the way they did buddy aid and picked up an MG42.  I was so impressed I took the screenshot.  

[Holman]

A unit will try to pick up a better class of weapon during buddy aid.  Since tank crews are usually all pistols, clever use of buddy aid can give you a crew with two MG-42's, a sniper rifle, and two MP-40's.

Provided you have enough prior casualties, of course...

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, Holman said:

A unit will try to pick up a better class of weapon during buddy aid.  Since tank crews are usually all pistols, clever use of buddy aid can give you a crew with two MG-42's, a sniper rifle, and two MP-40's.

Provided you have enough prior casualties, of course...

Sure, but as the previous discussion—especially the long post by ASL Veteran—has shown, that is gamey behavior of the lowest sort.

Michael

[Erwin]

Well, all the examples above feature the dastardly Hun.  Of course Allied crew would act in a braver and less gamey manner I am sure.

(heh)

[Holman]

I would *only* indulge in such absurd scavenger hunts to get a pretty screenshot, or to test the look of a new mod, or to cheaply rush the last victory location in the final fifteen seconds of the game!

[Erwin]

"... cheaply rush the last victory location in the final fifteen seconds of the game!" 

Who said RL war is fair or not gamey?

Edited February 13, 2017 by Erwin

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Erwin said:

Who said RL war is fair or not gamey?

Nobody. But real life imposes constraints on real soldiers that may or may not exist in the game. It is up to players whether or not they wish to observe house rules that attempt to restore the same constraints that reality does.

Michael