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US/ NATO v. Russia - Misperceptions.


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3 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Or you won't provide a viable argument against my evidence which clearly shows terrorists funded and supported by US and its allies, killing innocents, and destroying Syria as a whole. Okay let's say Russia did bad things in Ukraine, look at the destruction in Donbas and compare it to the destruction in Syria. Please sanction your own country, before sanctioning mine. 

No the difference is I am not Steve.  Well I am Steve, but I am not the Steve from Battlefront  I have seen how well you can ignore a well reasoned and documented argument and have no intention of spending that kind of time in futile discussion.  At best you might change your asserted position, you'll never admit to possibly being incorrect.  That sanction statement for example doesn't even make sense- your country is the one doing the damage in both cases.  Oh wait yeah you've already conveniently ignored that the situation started in Syria when the gov't reacted violently to peaceful protest.... wait for it... yes just like Maiden! Russia and it's friends are at least consistent.  Back to the rain gutters, yes we are finally getting rain in California!

Steve (not of Battlefront)

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3 minutes ago, sburke said:

No the difference is I am not Steve.  Well I am Steve, but I am not the Steve from Battlefront  I have seen how well you can ignore a well reasoned and documented argument and have no intention of spending that kind of time in futile discussion.  At best you might change your asserted position, you'll never admit to possibly being incorrect.  That sanction statement for example doesn't even make sense- your country is the one doing the damage in both cases.  Oh wait yeah you've already conveniently ignored that the situation started in Syria when the gov't reacted violently to peaceful protest.... wait for it... yes just like Maiden! Russia and it's friends are at least consistent.  Back to the rain gutters, yes we are finally getting rain in California!

Steve (not of Battlefront)

Hello Steve, I knew you had more than 2 accounts in the forum! Just kidding anyways 

I've changed my assert on a position only once and that's about one thing, that there were Russian troops in Ukraine. Now just because I was wrong about something (and not totally off I did believe we provided weapons and advisory) doesn't make me wrong now. But if you want to play your games of "The US and its allies have never done any regime toppling of sorts, and we aren't actively arming groups which have committed horrible war crimes, and are way worse than the regime" than okay, I'll play that game too. Seriously, I'd love for the people of Syria to have groups like Jaish Al Fateh take control, would be great for human rights! 

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6 minutes ago, sburke said:

No the difference is I am not Steve.  Well I am Steve, but I am not the Steve from Battlefront  I have seen how well you can ignore a well reasoned and documented argument and have no intention of spending that kind of time in futile discussion.  At best you might change your asserted position, you'll never admit to possibly being incorrect.  That sanction statement for example doesn't even make sense- your country is the one doing the damage in both cases.  Oh wait yeah you've already conveniently ignored that the situation started in Syria when the gov't reacted violently to peaceful protest.... wait for it... yes just like Maiden! Russia and it's friends are at least consistent.  Back to the rain gutters, yes we are finally getting rain in California!

Steve (not of Battlefront)

Watch out!  They know your full name now...  your e-mails might get HACKED!!!  :P:D

Edited by Blazing 88's
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2 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Hello Steve, I knew you had more than 2 accounts in the forum! Just kidding anyways 

I've changed my assert on a position only once and that's about one thing, that there were Russian troops in Ukraine. Now just because I was wrong about something (and not totally off I did believe we provided weapons and advisory) doesn't make me wrong now. But if you want to play your games of "The US and its allies have never done any regime toppling of sorts, and we aren't actively arming groups which have committed horrible war crimes, and are way worse than the regime" than okay, I'll play that game too. Seriously, I'd love for the people of Syria to have groups like Jaish Al Fateh take control, would be great for human rights! 

Nice try, but no I am not rising to the bait.  Feel free to try again though.

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17 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Or you won't provide a viable argument against my evidence which clearly shows terrorists funded and supported by US and its allies, killing innocents, and destroying Syria as a whole. Okay let's say Russia did bad things in Ukraine, look at the destruction in Donbas and compare it to the destruction in Syria. Please sanction your own country, before sanctioning mine. 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/syria/report-syria/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/islamic-state-has-killed-many-syrians-but-assads-forces-have-killed-even-more/2015/09/05/b8150d0c-4d85-11e5-80c2-106ea7fb80d4_story.html

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/14/world/middleeast/syria-war-deaths.html?_r=0

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/syria-war-russian-air-raids-kill-9400-year-160930082703222.html

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-killed-more-syrian-civilians-assad-or-isis-last-month-report-426775
 



I think someone else might be destroying Syria more effectively than ISIS ever could.  

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Um Panzer I appreciate the info on the death tolls, but I think you're ignoring the massacres brought forth by the rebels themselves, which have killed way more people than ISIS. If you read what I've wrote, I haven't denied Assad's troops doing collateral damage, but I've listed reasons on how these happen. But let me go on link overdrive to help you out real quick

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24486627

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-rebel-shelling-kills-28-civilians-in-aleppo-a7167321.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/19/u-s-backed-moderate-rebels-behead-a-child-near-aleppo.html

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/362980-aleppo-hostages-terrorists-paymasters/

We can keep sending links to each other, but the smart one will know that once terrorists use people as hostage, once they are targeted it will result in collateral damage. US forces should know this better than most, in Iraq it happened on a large scale. 

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See, here's the thing.  You didn't actually read what I posted.  If you did, you'd see how silly you just looked.  The most dangerous thing to Syrians is the Syrian government, or comes from Russia with love.

You can cite individual atrocities, but if your contention is what your country is doing, and what Assad is doing is the less terrible thing for the average Syrian, you would be comically wrong if not for the pile of dead Syrians by the hands of your countymen.

Your country is not there because the Syrian people need them.  It's there because it sees an advantage to keeping Assad in power, Syrians be damned.  There's a method to it, but the pretend humanitarianism has worn out its welcome.  If all of Syria was a wasteland, and the only living creature was Assad upon a throne made from the dead of "his" people, Russia would consider it a victory.  Because Assad now, and Assad forever is your nation's objective.

Personally I don't see any more need to engage with you on this topic if you are going to insult my intelligence.

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4 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

We can keep sending links to each other, but the smart one will know that once terrorists use people as hostage, once they are targeted it will result in collateral damage. US forces should know this better than most, in Iraq it happened on a large scale. 

Muslims are going to kill, rape, enslave, and torture because that is what ideologues with 2000-year-old moral teachings do. Them's the breaks, yo. The problem is when a secular civilized nation (Russia) backs a government that murders people in the tens of thousands by gassing and bombing them for daring to question Assad's legitimate reign. Then Russia follows up by killing 4,000 civilians by systematically applying inaccurate weapons to neighborhoods. Though not intentional, it shows how much Putin cares about anyone that is standing between cluster bombs and Assad's political enemies.

panzersaurkrautwerfer said it best:

4 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

 If all of Syria was a wasteland, and the only living creature was Assad upon a throne made from the dead of "his" people, Russia would consider it a victory.

 

Edited by JUAN DEAG
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13 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

3. The state is not PURPOSELY murdering civilians in a systematic way, let's put it this way.

Well they are as Russia/Syria is defining anyone & everyone outside of government controlled enclaves as terrorists

13 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Assad has millions living under his control and they aren't uprising against him

Millions of Syrian citizens in case you haven't noticed have vacated to milder climes as their lives had become untenable under Assad's government - Does Syria do postal voting?  Why hasn't Russia taken in Syrian refugees if the country and its people mean so much to it?

From astronaut to refugee: how the Syrian spaceman fell to Earth

“When the protests started, they were nothing but peaceful, for months on end.” Faris says he and his wife joined in, marching in Damascus, and calling for peaceful reform. They were threatened by supporters of the Assad regime for doing so but did not stop. “These were my people, all of them are my people, our people,” he says. Faris and his wife discussed the protests directly with the leadership, calling on them to make gentle changes, but “they [the Assads] thought they were gods”.

When the violence began, Faris watched as his former students were “brainwashed” into attacking their own people. “They were told if they did not attack they would be killed by the rebels.” Today, some of Faris’s best former students are military leaders, controlling airports and crucial government sites but most have left. “It is mainly just the Alawites who have stayed by Assad’s side,” Faris says.

Soon after, Faris began planning his escape. “Four times, we were ready but I could see it wasn’t going to work. We considered many routes.” With three children and a wife to think about, he left nothing to chance. Eventually, they packed what they could in a car without arousing suspicion and drove over the Turkish border in August 2012. He became, and remains, the highest-ranking defector from the Assad regime.

In his Istanbul office, the 64-year-old still has the medals he won from the Soviet Union: the Order of Lenin and Hero of the Soviet Union award, the highest of all honours. His former colleagues and friends in Russia have offered help. But he spits in disgust at the idea of claiming asylum there. “Putin is not the Soviet Union. These Russians, they are killers and criminals and supporters of murderers"

Says it all really.

and recently even the Syrian Alawites distance themselves from Assad

Edited by Wicky
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2 hours ago, Wicky said:

Well they are as Russia/Syria is defining anyone & everyone outside of government controlled enclaves as terrorists

Millions of Syrian citizens in case you haven't noticed have vacated to milder climes as their lives had become untenable under Assad's government - Does Syria do postal voting?  Why hasn't Russia taken in Syrian refugees if the country and its people mean so much to it?

Firstly, there were no syrian refuggees pre war. They are leaving the country because of the war, not because of Assad, thats not accurate. They were free to leave the country under Assad's rule as well but they didnt.

Secondly, they are not interested in moving to Russia. I've seen a lot of them here in Greece, they are educated, english speaking people with cellphones more expensive than mine, that their first priority is Germany or UK. They have relatives there and the chances to find a job are much higher.

Third, a lot of them are men in military age that either had to serve in the army and get killed or are ex rebels that decided to quit the fight. Nobody cant blame them really. And a few of them are ISIS agents, like the ones that crossed Greek borders and ended up killing people in Paris and Brussels.

Lastly Syria, welcomed more than a million Iraqis fleeing from the devastated country. That was a remarkable display of solidarity from a "misantrhopic" regime. The rich Gulf states have received zero so far.

 

 

 

 

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Assad created the war, they are leaving because of Assad.

He had a choice and choose suppression and violence. He could have made a different choice.

Power corrupts and Assad is just another dictator who cares more for power than his people. Putin falls into this camp, someone who will not give power up. It will end badly and just a matter of how many people die during the change over....

Good post Wicky

 

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11 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

You can cite individual atrocities, but if your contention is what your country is doing, and what Assad is doing is the less terrible thing for the average Syrian, you would be comically wrong if not for the pile of dead Syrians by the hands of your countymen.

You're going to still stick with the rhetoric that evil Russkiis are systematically bombing civilians targets and not engaging military targets? if your countrymen and their allies didn't support these terrorist organizations there wouldn't be a casualty list so high. The collateral damage in Iraq is similar to this in most studies, and reports filed out, and the US is way more capable in terms of precision in everything else than the Syrian military. You do know these guys hold whole districts as hostage right? Once the government sends out papers and leaflets and announces an operation will start, the rebels never let anyone out through the given corridors.

11 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Personally I don't see any more need to engage with you on this topic if you are going to insult my intelligence.

With all do respect, you're way smarter than me if you were a commander of an armored unit, you know english isn't my first language so to speak, I should have worded it better. Sorry for offending you man. I'm just a dirty grunt. 

Edited by VladimirTarasov
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7 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Muslims are going to kill, rape, enslave, and torture because that is what ideologues with 2000-year-old moral teachings do. Them's the breaks, yo. The problem is when a secular civilized nation (Russia) backs a government that murders people in the tens of thousands by gassing and bombing them for daring to question Assad's legitimate reign. Then Russia follows up by killing 4,000 civilians by systematically applying inaccurate weapons to neighborhoods. Though not intentional, it shows how much Putin cares about anyone that is standing between cluster bombs and Assad's political enemies.

No man now that's just messed up, you can't categorize a whole people over what some barbarians do, I have many Muslim friends which I come to respect. The main reason Russia has come to Syria is to protect its ally. Secondly, there are thousands of Chechens and people from Russia which are fighting in Syria. I mean I'm not going to color coat it, obviously Russia hasn't come through with 100% good will in mind, no nation does that. But let's look at the choices, Assad or some nut job Jihadi? And trust me even if Assad were ousted out of power, do you think the dozens of radical groups will let someone not from their ideology freely lead?

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34 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

No man now that's just messed up, you can't categorize a whole people over what some barbarians do,

That I agree with you 100% on.  The Catholic church has a very long and sordid history which makes ISIL look like a girl scout troop.  Hell those bozos have only been around a few decades.  They have a long way to go if they are going to be remembered in History books 100 years from now.

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1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

They were free to leave the country under Assad's rule as well but they didnt.

Yes, they were free to 'leave' the country but not free to 'go' anywhere. Even Turkey demanded visas from them until right before the uprising started - and there has been speculation that visits to Turkey by ordinary Syrians may have inspired them that they could live better.

1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

I've seen a lot of them here in Greece, they are educated, english speaking people with cellphones more expensive than mine

Do note that the ones who make it to Greece and beyond are those who have the money in the first place to pay human smugglers. Millions of others just try to survive in Turkey.

1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

The rich Gulf states have received zero so far.

+1

I dug up this BBC article and interview from 2013 that neatly sums up the dilemma the West is still facing today:

"Syria: Islamist Nusra Front gives BBC exclusive interview"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-21061018

"Western governments, then, face a dilemma.
If arms are allowed to reach the Syrian rebels, they could end up in the hands of radical Islamists.
But if moderates in the uprising are not identified and supported, power will flow to the best organised and most disciplined fighters. At the moment, those are the jihadists."

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Re: Refugees

They didn't flee Syria prior to the conflict because by and large the Syrian government wasn't dropping barrel bombs.  Just like ethnic Russians weren't fleeing the Ukraine until Russia started a war there, they might have had legitimate grievances or objections to the state of the world, but like, for most of us, those are secondary to getting groceries, getting to work on time, our jerk neighbors and the fact they having their arguments in the ally right by my living room window constitutes a good idea.

They're leaving now because what started as civil disobedience and vocalization of those legitimate grievances with the Assad regime set the government down the logic path of "how can I kill myself out of this one?"  Which resulted in where we are now.  This didn't have to be a war, or even a conflict, but the Syrian government decided the lives of its people were less expensive than letting go of a little power, or even making really sincere noises about it and then just basically running things as always.

There were literally hundreds of other options, but the Syrian government chose to lock and load on the people that nominally it protects and serves.

This, and the ensuring terror bombings, starvation tactics, and the absolute nightmare even loyal dissent could get you in, and the Syrians have clearly voted with their feet.  And when someone is choosing to risk drowning their entire family for long odds at a new life, just to leave your enlightened "terrorist" fighting dictatorship, I think you have to question if you're really fighting terrorists, or simply the best armed terrorists in the room.

 

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

You're going to still stick with the rhetoric that evil Russkiis are systematically bombing civilians targets and not engaging military targets? if your countrymen and their allies didn't support these terrorist organizations there wouldn't be a casualty list so high. The collateral damage in Iraq is similar to this in most studies, and reports filed out, and the US is way more capable in terms of precision in everything else than the Syrian military. You do know these guys hold whole districts as hostage right? Once the government sends out papers and leaflets and announces an operation will start, the rebels never let anyone out through the given corridors.

1. The amount of weapons we provided has been fairly modest, and with absolutely stupid levels of restriction to the degree it's effectively meaningless.  We've insisted on only arming groups that'll fight ISIS, while trying to avoid ones fighting Assad, which is a cute distinction when Assad is bombing all of them.  Even looking at what the Arab states (stupidly in my opinion) sent in, we're talking a drop in the bucket compared to the arms distributed to the Syrian government by the Russian government, and those arms, and their users as well and effectively illustrated in the links I posted that you failed to read, are what's killing the overwhelming majority of people, not ISIS, not the other non-state actors.

2. The collateral damage in Iraq is absolutely zero percent comparable.  At no point did the toll taken by the counter-insurgent forces (US/Western forces, plus Iraqi government) exceed the fatalities or injuries inflicted on civilians by the insurgents.  While the death totals might be the same, the primary killer in Iraq was the insurgents driving carbombs into markets, not the government/third parties dropping unguided weapons "somewhere" near the insurgents.

He's an interesting question though, if Russia is so concerned by the dead innocents in Syria, so interested in protecting them, where are the precision weapons?  You guys have them.  Not as many as we do, but surely they are not more expensive than the tanks, attack helicopters, and thousands of tons of munitions you've already sent.  You guys could even drop them yourselves if they need some sort of Slavic touch to work right.  

But you aren't providing them.  And you are not dropping them yourselves.  


Why is that?  By your own admission it's your lack of precision that's killing thousands of Syrians.  Why don't Russians care enough to use precision weapons?  If you know whole districts are being held hostage, why don't you care enough about those hostages, if they exist, to not use these stupid GLOSSNARD/Phaser guided terrorist seeking missiles you're so proud of to actually protect human life for once?

Could it be you're just marching lock step with someone who clearly doesn't care about his own subjects, because you only need him in charge, and the lives of innocent Syrians don't even register on your moral calculus?

As far as insulting my intelligence, just no.  It's clear you didn't read what I posted because you didn't even bother to look at it.  If you did, you're realize the absurdity of trying to compare a few hundred deaths by bad actors with the literal  thousands reaped by your government and the Syrian government enabled by your government's actions.  

Re: "A Solution"

The solution isn't a binary "some nut job" or "Assad."  We've never gotten anywhere near that sort of solution because the choices we've been given have not enabled a moderate or even less moderate choice of some legitimacy.  At several points Assad could have stepped down, appointed a less reprehensible member of his government, and planned out real elections in so many months/years.  Or again, working with moderates there could have been a coalition government that could have even been just dishonestly empowered (that basically the power remained with the existing elite).  

There was a whole host of choices, but right now the choice isn't "nut job" or "flawed but he's what we've got!" it's choose your nutjob, the one that drops bombs on hospitals (I believe one of the articles I listed shows 95% of recorded medical worker deaths were at the hands of the Syrian government vs the rebels) and markets or the one that saws heads off.

If we look at the ideology of the Syrian government, it's pretty much being the crotch spawn of the correct Syrian Air Force officer gives you a free hand to kill as many people as you can to stay on the throne.  It's not exactly much more rational, or even handed than ISIS when you get down to it.  

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11 minutes ago, Machor said:

Yes, they were free to 'leave' the country but not free to 'go' anywhere. Even Turkey demanded visas from them until right before the uprising started - and there has been speculation that visits to Turkey by ordinary Syrians may have inspired them that they could live better.

I think it was no secret that life was more comfortable closer to Europe. A lot had relatives abroad. They also knew that they were doing a lot better than their iraqi neighbours. 

15 minutes ago, Machor said:

Do note that the ones who make it to Greece and beyond are those who have the money in the first place to pay human smugglers. Millions of others just try to survive in Turkey.

+1. And a lot were lost between, in the aegean sea. And those smugglers get away stealing thousands of dollars per person just to put them in floating coffins. 

17 minutes ago, Machor said:

"Western governments, then, face a dilemma.
If arms are allowed to reach the Syrian rebels, they could end up in the hands of radical Islamists.
But if moderates in the uprising are not identified and supported, power will flow to the best organised and most disciplined fighters. At the moment, those are the jihadists."

I think its the nature of the conflict that no matter what, moderate rebels could never have had the upper hand in the opposition camp. The latest rebel offensive to relief the Aleppo siege is consited mainly of terror groups coordinated by IS and spearheaded by suicide bombers. They have already shelled and killed civilians and children in a school. This is what is apparently left from the armed opposition. We are debating it for pages now but all we get is that we are dictatorship advocats. This dilemma sadly didnt prevent high quality western equipment to fall in the wrong hands.

And a last word about the refugees. Despite being by large responsible for the mess down there, western world hasn't shown much love for those running away from the conflict. Thousands were trapped for months here, waiting for the northern borders to open to no avail. Those who make it are subject to racist attitude from the growing right wing movement in Europe. I felt so embarassed as a european citizen, to see families here cramped in filthy tents for months deserted by everyone except common people that offered them few things from the little they had. Oh, some hollywood stars paraded as well.

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12 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

1. The amount of weapons we provided has been fairly modest, and with absolutely stupid levels of restriction to the degree it's effectively meaningless.  We've insisted on only arming groups that'll fight ISIS, while trying to avoid ones fighting Assad, which is a cute distinction when Assad is bombing all of them.  Even looking at what the Arab states (stupidly in my opinion) sent in, we're talking a drop in the bucket compared to the arms distributed to the Syrian government by the Russian government, and those arms, and their users as well and effectively illustrated in the links I posted that you failed to read, are what's killing the overwhelming majority of people, not ISIS, not the other non-state actors.

There's been more than one case a US provided TOW has killed SAA. http://armamentresearch.com/us-produced-tow-2a-atgws-in-syria/ scroll down to the picture with the US serial number on the missile. You've been in the US army, you guys have precision weaponry, GPS guided artillery shells, GPS guided PGMs, all of the gucci gear, let's take a look at what the Syrian armed forces has. If you were expecting anything miraculous since rebels don't like to let the city through safe corridors, this is what the result is.

18 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

2. The collateral damage in Iraq is absolutely zero percent comparable.  At no point did the toll taken by the counter-insurgent forces (US/Western forces, plus Iraqi government) exceed the fatalities or injuries inflicted on civilians by the insurgents.  While the death totals might be the same, the primary killer in Iraq was the insurgents driving carbombs into markets, not the government/third parties dropping unguided weapons "somewhere" near the insurgents.

Of course the insurgents drove car bombs into markets those guys are scum, but there's also reports, and studies which show casualties caused by Coalition forces, we have a website like this showing deaths caused by Coalition forces over one year https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ 7.5K killed in 2003, 3K in 2004. 2K in 2005. Precision weaponry was used but as you can see you still have had collateral damage. Which is fine if not deliberate, but the worse effect it brought into Iraq is totally not fine.

29 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

He's an interesting question though, if Russia is so concerned by the dead innocents in Syria, so interested in protecting them, where are the precision weapons?  You guys have them.  Not as many as we do, but surely they are not more expensive than the tanks, attack helicopters, and thousands of tons of munitions you've already sent.  You guys could even drop them yourselves if they need some sort of Slavic touch to work right.  

First and foremost, all our aircraft that conducts CAS or strike missions in Syria have SVP-24s which are not precision so to say, but are accurate. And there are footage out there with use of PGMs. We use what's in hand, but that beside the fact, the Syrians don't have anything like that.

Yes Russian jets have contributed to the collateral damage in Syria, but we can't just ignore the fact that rebels use these innocent people literally as hostages. https://www.rt.com/news/353937-russia-humanitarian-aid-aleppo/ it is well documented as well, this is the major reasons why the SAA has such a high collateral damage rate, yes it's horrible, and I wish it never happened, but we can't just put the whole blame on the government, it's a war and they have to fight it. They can't just give up territory and not fight because the rebels are not letting people leave the military zone. 

38 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Why is that?  By your own admission it's your lack of precision that's killing thousands of Syrians.  Why don't Russians care enough to use precision weapons?  If you know whole districts are being held hostage, why don't you care enough about those hostages, if they exist, to not use these stupid GLOSSNARD/Phaser guided terrorist seeking missiles you're so proud of to actually protect human life for once?

We do have a PGM inventory, which we have used in Syria, and when we don't use precision weaponry we use the SVP-24, it's like the CCIP or CCRP, not like they are just randomly flinging bombs into an area where military targets are. This certainly caused innocents to lose their lives, and it is bad, but we aren't talking about horrible CEPs. Mistakes and militant positioning have caused many losses as well. But it is anything but deliberate. 

45 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Could it be you're just marching lock step with someone who clearly doesn't care about his own subjects, because you only need him in charge, and the lives of innocent Syrians don't even register on your moral calculus?

A short sighted look at the conflict will present you with a horrible image of course, the government forces have killed innocents and caused massive collateral damage, however these are anything but deliberate. We must look at this conflict in a long sighted glaze...

Assad goes, someone else who's best friends with the West comes. Now what happens to the other Jihadi groups which the West and Gulf allies have supported and armed? They're gonna let everything go back to normal? Absolutely not. It's just going to become a greater slaughter fest than it is. Radical Sunnis chopping off Shia heads, Radical Sunnis who love their group fighting Radical Sunnis that love the West. Mind you that's already what is happening, already a bunch of infighting between groups. 

The uprising is a lost cause a while ago, and the majority of actual reform fighters which have taken arms against the government is quite low compared to the radicals, and what say you that are now fighting in Syria.

You can agree with that I'm sure, but where we disagree on is not even the casualties that government forces and allies have caused, but who's fight is currently right over there. I'd rather stick with the government's side where people aren't held as hostage, or forced to wear Hijabs, or be radicalized. The Government side contains majority Sunni, Shias, Alawites, Jews, Christians basically the country's population, where as we can't see much of the same on the rebel side where people are radicalized.

56 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

As far as insulting my intelligence, just no. 

Take my apology for insulting your intelligence, if you want we can PBEM, I'll let you get back at me through there with those M1A2s and Javelins. 

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16 hours ago, cool breeze said:

I agree.  Seems to me things are moving in the right direction, as people age and the world moves forward.  Young people who didn't grow up during the Cold War are mostly the ones who see Russia as the enemy, and trust the government.  The youth grew up with access to the internet and open minds for the most part.      

Lol it's funny you say that panzer because I've been telling people for a while now that I see a vote for hillary as a vote for the US and a vote for trump as a vote for the world.  

Haha. I wouldnt put my all my "World" money on Trump either. Politically I'm more leaning to the democrats, though I dont like Hilary as a person. I still remember that video of her making a joke on Ghadaffi's horrible end. No matter how bad he was, to cheer for someone's death shows a pretty cruel and heartless nature.  

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26 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

 the government forces have killed innocents and caused massive collateral damage, however these are anything but deliberate. 

This has to be one of the most deliberately denying and morally empty statements ever on this forum.  

So all those indiscriminate barrel bombs were accidentally built,  somehow loaded non-deliberately onto those Russian supplied helicopters and NON DELIBERATELY fell into market places full of terrorist women and terrorist children looking for terrorist food to eat in their terrorist homes on terrorist plates with terrorist cutlery? 

Sometimes your unrelentingly apologist stance for all things Putin sickens me. 

Then I move on. 

Edited by kinophile
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1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

1. The amount of weapons we provided has been fairly modest, and with absolutely stupid levels of restriction to the degree it's effectively meaningless.  We've insisted on only arming groups that'll fight ISIS, while trying to avoid ones fighting Assad, which is a cute distinction when Assad is bombing all of them.  Even looking at what the Arab states (stupidly in my opinion) sent in, we're talking a drop in the bucket compared to the arms distributed to the Syrian government by the Russian government, and those arms, and their users as well and effectively illustrated in the links I posted that you failed to read, are what's killing the overwhelming majority of people, not ISIS, not the other non-state actors.

We can agree on how silly it is arming these groups in Syria though right?

At one point we had a CIA backed rebel group and a Pentagon backed rebel group killing eachother with the weapons we gave them. That isn't to mention plenty of reports talking about how once said weapons were recieved by a particular group they were almost immediately distributed to "friends" of the group or sold to the highest bidder. I don't think we should be arming anyone with anything bigger than an M-4 because you have no idea where the heck its going to end up, hopefully TOW's are the biggest thing they get.

Edited by Raptorx7
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2 minutes ago, kinophile said:

This has to be the most deliberately ignorance and morally emptyt statement ever on this forum.  

All those indescribable barrel bombs were accidentally built,  somehow loaded non-deliberately onto those Russian supplied helicopters and NON DELIBERATELY fell into market places full of terrorist women and terrorist children? 

Sometimes your unrelentingly apologist stance for all things Putin sickens me. 

Then I move on. 

A barrel bomb is a bomb, no more different if a MIG-23 dropped the dumb bomb on a militant position and missed it and hit a family's house. Let's start talking about those hell cannons? http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-attacks-idUSKBN0JQ17I20141212 

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1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

I think it was no secret that life was more comfortable closer to Europe.

The finer argument is that visa-free travel to Turkey may have exposed ordinary Syrians to a Muslim-majority country that was living much better than them without oil. Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that some may have had the notion whispered to them.

1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

The latest rebel offensive to relief the Aleppo siege is consited mainly of terror groups coordinated by IS

If you can link me to a reliable source that states ISIS has begun working together with other groups, I'd appreciate. Such a development would change the entire dynamic of the war.

1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

and spearheaded by suicide bombers.

Yes, and since we're all tactical wargamers here, I suggest we focus on this. The tactical dilemma with not arming the rebels is that if conventional weapons are withheld from them, they have to switch to asymmetrical means, and both the know-how and (in the case of suicide bombers) personnel for those means are supplied by Jihadists:

"Outgunned Syria rebels make shift to bombs"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-bombs-idUSBRE83T04U20120430

"Since the army routed them from their strongholds in cities, some rebels said they realized that even in guerrilla street battles they could not beat Assad's tanks or artillery.

The Syrian Liberation Army's spokesman Qdemati said his group's fighters were now focusing most of their attention on "manufacturing facilities" for bombs.

"You are going to start seeing an escalation as we improve our techniques of bomb-making and delivery.""

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