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US/ NATO v. Russia - Misperceptions.


Kinophile

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Very soon we'll be seeing a counterpoint to Vladimir's third point:

"Mosul Iraq battle: 'Tens of thousands of civilians' used as IS human shields"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37797700

"Islamic State (IS) militants have abducted tens of thousands of civilians from around the Iraqi city of Mosul to use as human shields, the UN says.
The group also killed some 190 former members of Iraq's security services and 42 civilians, apparently for refusing to obey its orders, the UN adds."

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14 minutes ago, Machor said:

Are you suggesting that the US was behind the invasion? I've heard this before, and frankly it comes across as a conspiracy theory without further evidence.

Well one can say *at least* they are indirectly responsible. Τhey were aware of turkish intentions, both Greece and Turkey were inside their vaccuum back then. The 1967 coup was widely condemed in Europe, only US supported it. Most greeks hold them responsible for that since then.

 

30 minutes ago, Machor said:

A better analogy would be Ukraine invading Crimea to counter its annexation to Russia. In the case of Russia, it had the option to wait and try other strategies. In the case of Turkey, if it had waited, Cyprus would have simply become a part of Greece. Please note that I'm cognizant of the suffering brought on by the Turkish invasion and opposed to many of its details.

Greece practically never had any realistic chance to materialize such a unification plan like the russians did. When the turkish 40.000 strong invasion occured, there were around 1000 greek soldiers on the whole island. The obsolete F-84 that were stationed in Crete, didnt even manage to take off to help because their range didnt permit. Even when the militaryJunta collapsed after the initial invasion in July, turkish forces continued a second phase in August, further south ultimately occupying 40% percent of the island. It was just stupid ultra-nationalists taking the bait and being outsmarted as usual. Cyprus was a sitting duck.

1 hour ago, Machor said:

In a nutshell, the Greek leadership was outright stupid and instead of taking what was on the table, they thought that they could get a better deal by putting pressure on Turkey's application to EU membership. They never realized the extent to which Turkey's membership was categorically impossible for other EU members.

Probably. Our leadership had never been particulary brilliant. We'll see, given the unpredactibilty of Erdogan maybe Cyprus will be the least of our worries in the future.

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Just now, Machor said:

Very soon we'll be seeing a counterpoint to Vladimir's third point:

"Mosul Iraq battle: 'Tens of thousands of civilians' used as IS human shields"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37797700

"Islamic State (IS) militants have abducted tens of thousands of civilians from around the Iraqi city of Mosul to use as human shields, the UN says.
The group also killed some 190 former members of Iraq's security services and 42 civilians, apparently for refusing to obey its orders, the UN adds."

God speed to the Iraqi army, hopefully Iraq and its allies can take Mosul from those devils. It's sad how groups like these resort to human shields DELIBERATELY without local support in majority cases... 

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2 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Well one can say *at least* they are indirectly responsible.

Again, given the fact that the invasion set off a predictable chain of events that led to Greece leaving NATO, one would need more than speculation for such a claim. The US does screw up - a lot - and I don't see why this would be any different.

6 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Even when the militaryJunta collapsed after the initial invasion in July, turkish forces continued a second phase in August, further south ultimately occupying 40% percent of the island.

This was precisely one of the reasons I mentioned my opposition to the invasion's details. I could also add the vague policy about Greek Cypriots remaining in Turkish controlled territory (which effectively made them flee and become refugees) and some Greek POWs being turned over to the militia, probably with tragic consequences.

12 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

given the unpredactibilty of Erdogan maybe Cyprus will be the least of our worries in the future

+1 :)

10 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

God speed to the Iraqi army

The only thing this forum is politically united around is a hatred of ISIS. Still waiting for some troll to take up their cause. :P

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17 minutes ago, Machor said:

Very soon we'll be seeing a counterpoint to Vladimir's third point:

"Mosul Iraq battle: 'Tens of thousands of civilians' used as IS human shields"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37797700

"Islamic State (IS) militants have abducted tens of thousands of civilians from around the Iraqi city of Mosul to use as human shields, the UN says.
The group also killed some 190 former members of Iraq's security services and 42 civilians, apparently for refusing to obey its orders, the UN adds."

Oh boy. How can they still pull things like that. Everyone has been bombing them lately. 

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18 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Oh boy. How can they still pull things like that. Everyone has been bombing them lately. 

It's not as easy as bombing them sadly, you need ground forces to do the fatal blows unless you are willing extreme collateral damage. Conventional warfare is best for Air Forces to take part in, when it's a mix of conventional and not conventional it gets very troubling.  

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Was Vladimir consulted for this? :D

"Lithuania issues updated Russian invasion advice booklets"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37805970

" Lithuania has updated its civil defence booklet telling citizens what to do in the event of a Russian invasion.

...

The government has also launched a telephone hotline for citizens to report anyone they suspect of being a spy.

...

It includes guides to spotting Russian tanks, bullets and mines as well as surviving in the wild."

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Yes, I helped the Lithuanian government in making that. Apparently we need spies in order to reach Vilnyus' in half a day. 

Seriously this is getting out of control... Lithuania is in NATO, and Russia is not going to put one soldier on its soil unless it wants to go to war with all of NATO. I hate how they are hyping up this Russian aggression stuff every coming month. You know there is a saying from a country forgot which one but I remember it "if you say something 40 times it will happen" :D 

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4 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Bahh terrorizing poor people and distracting them from real life. Its Cold war again but with internet.

Sadly... Before all this I was actually hoping Russia and the west will become close friends or something. Was naive of me to think.  Geopolitics, interests, influence, will never permit this. We'll always be politically enemies till the end. 

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Just now, VladimirTarasov said:

Sadly... Before all this I was actually hoping Russia and the west will become close friends or something. Was naive of me to think.  Geopolitics, interests, influence, will never permit this. We'll always be politically enemies till the end. 

Political enemies perhaps, as long we let politicians and the elite divide us. But people have come closer than before and it is encouraging to see a lot of people in the states that dont consider Russia their enemy. Hope common sense will prevail. 

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9 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Political enemies perhaps, as long we let politicians and the elite divide us. But people have come closer than before and it is encouraging to see a lot of people in the states that dont consider Russia their enemy. Hope common sense will prevail. 

Just like Trump and his merry men and women?  God help us all!  Sorry couldn't resist.

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Just now, Blazing 88's said:

Just like Trump and his merry men and women?  God help us all!  Sorry couldn't resist.

Hahah. If I was a US citizen I would vote for Hilary. As a global citizen I would vote for Trump. But I dont trust either. Maybe Trump has no idea what he is talking about being friends with Russia and changes rhetoric once elected. But its hilarious to read comments all over the internet with democrats labeled warmongers and gun loving republicans praying we will avoid WW3. Such a bizarre time we live in.

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3 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

No no no no, Jesus Christ, this is double standard, so the US can stick its nose together with its allies into Syria because people are uprising, support terrorist groups, just because Assad is at blame, and it's still perfectly fine? So then Russia shouldn't get blamed for supporting Donbas uprising and arming groups there since there was already a uprising of some sort. Bottom line is, Assad has millions living under his control and they aren't uprising against him and majority are Sunni which throws away the claims of deliberate targeting of Sunni Muslims. Russia is actually legally correct here, it has come to the aid of a government, and I am glad our bombs are blasting terrorist groups in Syria to hell. Also you leave out other things in your argument:

1. Many LEGITIMATE rebels have already reconciled with the government in a non-violent way, and they are given local authority and they are happy with it. 

2. Many of these "rebels" have switched over to ISIS, and especially members from FSA which the US/Turkey/Saudis support as a proxy. 

3. The state is not PURPOSELY murdering civilians in a systematic way, let's put it this way. Their air fleet is old, their equipment is old, and those rebel groups of whom which you support KILL any civilains that flee towards the government side. It happened in Eastern Aleppo, Russia stopped bombing East Aleppo for 10 days now, and guess what happens to any innocents that flee to the government side during this pause? THEY GET KILLED. I'm more than sure there have been individual cases where government troops have committed a crime, but who's to say the US hasn't either or Russia hasn't? You can't just support head choppers that kill kids for supporting Assad, because Assad is a bad guy. That's sick and despicable. 

 

Sorry they are not equal no matter how much you want to spin the "Donbass liberation movement."  The US had nothing to do with the demand of the Syrian people for reform, but the US and many other nations did want to intervene to stop the bloodshed overwhelmingly committed by Assad's forces.  Compare that to Donbass, a "revolt" instigated and basically run by Moscow for Moscow's geopolitical interests.  Sorry you don't get to compare the criminal enterprise in Donbass currently run out of the Kremlin to a genuine outcry for reform in Syria.  If anything Assad's actions in Syria are comparable to the Kremlin flunky Yanukovich during Maidan.  Any doubts that might have remained about how deep the Kremlin has been involved have pretty much been answered with the hack of Surkov's email acct.

And yes the Syrian gov't and Russia are intentionally killing civilians.  It is Russia's MO from Afghanistan and Chechnya, why would we expect different now.

And your assumption that every rebel is a "head chopper" is nice and comforting when Russia is busy area bombing hospitals, but if that were actually true, ISIL would actually be holding a lot more ground than it is and western aid workers wouldn't be there at all as ISIL loves killing them.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Political enemies perhaps, as long we let politicians and the elite divide us. But people have come closer than before and it is encouraging to see a lot of people in the states that dont consider Russia their enemy. Hope common sense will prevail. 

I agree.  Seems to me things are moving in the right direction, as people age and the world moves forward.  Young people who didn't grow up during the Cold War are mostly the ones who see Russia as the enemy, and trust the government.  The youth grew up with access to the internet and open minds for the most part.      

Lol it's funny you say that panzer because I've been telling people for a while now that I see a vote for hillary as a vote for the US and a vote for trump as a vote for the world.  

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26 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Hahah. If I was a US citizen I would vote for Hilary. As a global citizen I would vote for Trump. But I dont trust either. Maybe Trump has no idea what he is talking about being friends with Russia and changes rhetoric once elected. But its hilarious to read comments all over the internet with democrats labeled warmongers and gun loving republicans praying we will avoid WW3. Such a bizarre time we live in.

 

12 minutes ago, cool breeze said:

I agree.  Seems to me things are moving in the right direction, as people age and the world moves forward.  Young people who didn't grow up during the Cold War are mostly the ones who see Russia as the enemy, and trust the government.  The youth grew up with access to the internet and open minds for the most part.      

Lol it's funny you say that panzer because I've been telling people for a while now that I see a vote for hillary as a vote for the US and a vote for trump as a vote for the world.  

 

Please, don't include Canada in that "World" list...  PLEASE!!  Thank you.  :D

This guy here scares the **** out of me, as I am sure he would be the one whispering past Trumps left ear hair to push the F'n button.

GettyImages-166901662.0.jpg

Sorry, last I will be posting about this ****.  Don't want to derail the thread further.

Edited by Blazing 88's
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1 minute ago, Blazing 88's said:

Please, don't include Canada in that "World" list...  PLEASE!!  Thank you.

This guy here scares the **** out of me, as I am sure he would be the one whispering past Trumps left ear hair to push the F'n button.

GettyImages-166901662.0.jpg

Sorry, last I will be posting about this ****.  Don't want to derail the thread further.

 God, he looks like some war nutjob straight out of Dr Strangelove 

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Just now, sburke said:

The US had nothing to do with the demand of the Syrian people for reform, but the US and many other nations did want to intervene to stop the bloodshed overwhelmingly committed by Assad's forces. 

Uniting all of Europe on Jihadi scums side is all the support the US needed to provide. the US is supporting dozens of terrorist groups which are allied with the Nusra front which is former Qaeda. All the TOWs provided by Saudi Arabia and the US which have ended up killing regime tanks, training these groups together in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Turkey. The US almost went to war over Syria over gas when the same rebel groups have been using chemical weapons on Regime troops. Well documented if you follow the conflict closely, and have good sources. But I'm sure you believe the US has not supported the rebels with weapons, training, advisory, and intelligence... Even your media has it. Come on now, you're denying reality.

6 minutes ago, sburke said:

Any doubts that might have remained about how deep the Kremlin has been involved have pretty much been answered with the hack of Surkov's email acct.

Okay, going by that rhetoric you believe there is no majority support for Russian backed forces in Donbas, which is debunked by many people on the net. I never denied Syrian rebels having local support in some areas, however if you look at Aleppo where the majority 1.5 million population is under government control, no one is protesting infact rebels are bombing them with shells, but of course you'll only see the part where a Russian bomb pulverizes terrorist position where they were holding hostages so they can just film it on camera and scream for your attention. In reality you're supporting terrorists and that's the end case. 

9 minutes ago, sburke said:

And yes the Syrian gov't and Russia are intentionally killing civilians.  It is Russia's MO from Afghanistan and Chechnya, why would we expect different now.

Soviet Union in Afghanistan has done collateral damage but that's a total different story from a totally different regime. And Chechnya... That's self explanatory, look at Russia in the 90s what did you expect precision clean work? Same stuff over and over. Yes Russia uses accurate weapon systems but even if it was 100% precision missiles like our western allies use a bomb is a bomb look at this link:

Precision?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/26/syria-coalition-airstrikes-civilian-death-toll-amnesty-international

BUT, I totally support US airstrikes against ISIS vermin. I understand collateral damage terrorists use people as hostage. Now imagine the Assad regime. Lacking intelligence, precision weaponry, competence, discipline, organization. But listen here, let me show you something CNN or Fox News never shows

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415586/Syrian-rebels-attack-historic-Christian-village-residents-speak-language-Jesus.html

http://news.trust.org/item/20161028064428-7l63p/

22 minutes ago, sburke said:

And your assumption that every rebel is a "head chopper" is nice and comforting when Russia is busy area bombing hospitals, but if that were actually true, ISIL would actually be holding a lot more ground than it is and western aid workers wouldn't be there at all as ISIL loves killing them.

Um no, but being apart of a group where it has happened, makes you just as responsible for such incidents. There is a video of rebels beheading a 11 year old however, I refuse to let the people here see such disgusting vile acts. I can PM you it instead if you'd like. And here's what your government has to say about it

"one incident won't stop funding"  

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10 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

 

 God, he looks like some war nutjob straight out of Dr Strangelove 

He's on Trump's ticket, supposedly one of many...  If you want to waste some time with youtube, check out some of his rants at a Trump rally if you can.

Edited by Blazing 88's
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5 hours ago, panzermartin said:

So, why ISIS was primarily born in post Saddam Iraq, where there was no despotic regime around anymore?

good lord.  As much as I am fascinated by Middle eastern history on par with Steve's fascination with Russian history, I am not gonna spend all night writing a dissertation on the developments in Syria and the Sunni wahabist movement.  That being said, I will write a little....  First off the Jihadist movement does not equal ISIL.  ISIL is one organization.  That it has it's origins in Iraq is literally completely irrelevant as to whether it could fill a power vacuum in Syria as the Assad regime lost control.  Look at a map of Syria showing the areas dominated by various groups.  Where is ISIL's capital?  Hint there is a coincidental relationship to the Iraqi border.

And if you think the relationship of Baghdad to the Sunni community is all roses and tea parties, look again.  The Shia/Sunni conflict is alive and well and Russia's partner in Syria (Iran) is also involved stirring that pot.

The situation in the middle east is extremely complicated and defies easy solutions. You have an area where Britain and France essentially let a child draw on a map and then said yeah that looks good!  Then just for good measure they, the US and the USSR continued to intervene in those countries with no regard for the damage they might be doing.  And then for the cherry on top, the Saud family makes a deal with the devil to establish themselves as the political/religous authority in the Middle East and proceeds to use their massive oil revenues to spread wahabism around the globe.

So yeah the Middle East is F"ked up royally.  But that doesn't mean every other poor sucker in the Middle East that wants to feed his family and be able to vote is suddenly an ISIL terrorist.  On the other hand what has any one on the outside ever done for them?  Who in the international community has ever really tried to promote change entirely without self interest?

And before you ask, I opposed the war in Iraq right from the get go.  It was stupid, ill advised and worse ill planned.  Do I have any sympathy for Saddam and his regime?  Not one bit, but when you kick over a house of cards it is imperative that you make sure to not leave a mess. Human lives were at stake and the US screwed the pooch royally.  We created a power vacuum and we paid the price along with a lot of Iraqis.  There was a brief moment in Syria where there might have been a negotiated solution.  Russia however made sure that wasn't gonna happen with their UN veto.  Transitions from a despotic regime are really really hard.  There have been articles here on just how hard it is for a society to recover from a demagogue (I'll let you decide who they were writing about :-D ).  When a demagogue is all you have ever known it is infinitely harder.  I have a huge amount of sympathy for the people's of the middle east and more than a bit of a guilty conscience about the role my country has played.  I don't however have any easy answers and leaving a despotic regime in power is not one.  That just continues the problem.

So the point of all this is if you want to really discuss power vacuums and the rise of ISIL you have about 100 years of history to brush up on.  It is well worthwhile as an informed discussion on the situation in the middle east is about as rare as a Miss Universe contestant that Trump hasn't ogled. 

Edited by sburke
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8 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

West supports Jihadi terrorists, Russia is friends with Ukraine, Syria is only doing what it can to stop being overrun by waves of Jihadist zombies, blah blah blah

You'll always have an excuse. Simplicity is the refuge for those who want excuses for their actions.    I am not going to bother arguing with you.  I need to go clear my rain gutters or something.

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4 minutes ago, sburke said:

You'll always have an excuse. Simplicity is the refuge for those who want excuses for their actions.    I am not going to bother arguing with you.  I need to go clear my rain gutters or something.

Or you won't provide a viable argument against my evidence which clearly shows terrorists funded and supported by US and its allies, killing innocents, and destroying Syria as a whole. Okay let's say Russia did bad things in Ukraine, look at the destruction in Donbas and compare it to the destruction in Syria. Please sanction your own country, before sanctioning mine. 

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