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1 hour ago, TerminatorX said:

Steve, are you worried that requiring users to purchase Upgrade 3.0 so that they can purchase Upgrade 4.0 so that they can purchase the new CMFI module might hurt sales? 

Wait a sec... that is almost certainly not the case here though, is it?!?! Yes, I saw Steve's comments from Sept. 20, and I don't think he meant it the way you described.

My assumption would be that if you purchase 4.0 separately (for $10 or whatever), then that would update all four CMx2 titles to 4.0. But that if you did not purchase the separate 4.0 update -- i.e., just purchased the new CMFI module alone -- you'd end up with 4.0 for Fortress Italy but not for Normandy, Bulge, or Red Thunder????

Now that I think about it more, there'd likely be some problems with that update method, so my assumption is probably wrong. (I think that plan would be 100% fair though, for the record.)

Surely you would not be required to purchase 3.0 and 4.0 separately ($20 or so, but for all four titles) just to play a new, full-priced CMFI module?

 

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To be perfectly honest, I am completely ok with paying $10 per upgrade (or whatever the amount is they end up charging), per title. So for me that would be a total of $50, as I own 5 CM games that are going to receive the upgrade. This is of course if this is how the 4.0 upgrade system will work. I'm not sure if its been fleshed out by Battlefront how that will work, but if this is the case:

First and foremost, Battlefront is making a product. They are putting their time and effort into a product. Charging for said product is well within reason, as it is also within reason that they dictate the price of said product. 

Second, Battlefront produces products that I believe to be both extremely unique and extremely well made. What CM does is not rivaled by anything else. Steel Beasts is the best modern armor simulator that I know of, Falcon BMS is the best F-16 flight/combat simulator that I know of. CM is THE tactical land combat simulator. My opinion, but I feel I could make a reasonable argument backed up by facts and track record if I had to. I do not know of another game/sim that models the complexity of land combat that even comes close to CM. 

Third, and a tie in to the second point, is that Battlefront is a niche developer, creating a series of games for a niche genre. I understand that in order for them to stay alive as a business, they must make market decisions such as paid upgrades. Because I love the product and want to see more in the (hopefully near) future, I am more than happy to support Battlefront by buying their new products.  

I think at the end of the day, the most fair interaction between Battlefront and the community is that they keep producing awesome CM games/expansions/upgrades, the community keeps supporting them, and then we get more content. 

Anyways just my opinion on the pricing matter of the upgrade. Looking forward to v4, all the new features sound great!

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39 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

To be perfectly honest, I am completely ok with paying $10 per upgrade (or whatever the amount is they end up charging), per title. So for me that would be a total of $50, as I own 5 CM games that are going to receive the upgrade. This is of course if this is how the 4.0 upgrade system will work. I'm not sure if its been fleshed out by Battlefront how that will work, but if this is the case:

First and foremost, Battlefront is making a product. They are putting their time and effort into a product. Charging for said product is well within reason, as it is also within reason that they dictate the price of said product. 

Second, Battlefront produces products that I believe to be both extremely unique and extremely well made. What CM does is not rivaled by anything else. Steel Beasts is the best modern armor simulator that I know of, Falcon BMS is the best F-16 flight/combat simulator that I know of. CM is THE tactical land combat simulator. My opinion, but I feel I could make a reasonable argument backed up by facts and track record if I had to. I do not know of another game/sim that models the complexity of land combat that even comes close to CM. 

Third, and a tie in to the second point, is that Battlefront is a niche developer, creating a series of games for a niche genre. I understand that in order for them to stay alive as a business, they must make market decisions such as paid upgrades. Because I love the product and want to see more in the (hopefully near) future, I am more than happy to support Battlefront by buying their new products.  

I think at the end of the day, the most fair interaction between Battlefront and the community is that they keep producing awesome CM games/expansions/upgrades, the community keeps supporting them, and then we get more content. 

Anyways just my opinion on the pricing matter of the upgrade. Looking forward to v4, all the new features sound great!

Well said. Totally agree.

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5 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

To be perfectly honest, I am completely ok with paying $10 per upgrade (or whatever the amount is they end up charging), per title. So for me that would be a total of $50, as I own 5 CM games that are going to receive the upgrade.  <Snip> 

Yes this.   

While we're on the topic make it $20 per upgrade and hire another programmer so the production speed can increase and we can buy even more stuff at a faster pace.................... I can dream..........:D  

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+1 here as well on supporting the current paid upgrade system.

I am assuming $10 per upgrade level per licensed game product with BN, FI, RT, FB and BS being individual products.  I'm completely happy with that and think it's a great system. I haven’t been so excited about a release since CMRT. The 4.0 upgrade is going to bring wonderful new things that I've been wanting for a long time.

Remember, there is no free upgrade option if you want BF to stay in business. There are essentially three choices for feature upgrades in CM:

  1. Paid upgrades at reasonable prices that enhance titles released earlier and keep them current.
  2. New features only coming with new game families and no upgrades to older titles.
  3. BF going out of business and no more Combat Mission products.

IMHO, that’s just about the easiest choice ever.

I’m also not someone who buys every CM title, as I’m one of those players looking more for features over content at this point and I have more CM content than actual time to play it. I don’t even hesitate on the Upgrades, though. Not a second.

Love ‘em and buy them right away each time for the titles I have.

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5 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

To be perfectly honest, I am completely ok with paying $10 per upgrade (or whatever the amount is they end up charging), per title. So for me that would be a total of $50, as I own 5 CM games that are going to receive the upgrade. This is of course if this is how the 4.0 upgrade system will work. I'm not sure if its been fleshed out by Battlefront how that will work, but if this is the case:

First and foremost, Battlefront is making a product. They are putting their time and effort into a product. Charging for said product is well within reason, as it is also within reason that they dictate the price of said product. 

Second, Battlefront produces products that I believe to be both extremely unique and extremely well made. What CM does is not rivaled by anything else. Steel Beasts is the best modern armor simulator that I know of, Falcon BMS is the best F-16 flight/combat simulator that I know of. CM is THE tactical land combat simulator. My opinion, but I feel I could make a reasonable argument backed up by facts and track record if I had to. I do not know of another game/sim that models the complexity of land combat that even comes close to CM. 

Third, and a tie in to the second point, is that Battlefront is a niche developer, creating a series of games for a niche genre. I understand that in order for them to stay alive as a business, they must make market decisions such as paid upgrades. Because I love the product and want to see more in the (hopefully near) future, I am more than happy to support Battlefront by buying their new products.  

I think at the end of the day, the most fair interaction between Battlefront and the community is that they keep producing awesome CM games/expansions/upgrades, the community keeps supporting them, and then we get more content. 

Anyways just my opinion on the pricing matter of the upgrade. Looking forward to v4, all the new features sound great!

Well said, but when the 4.0 upgrade is released these forums will still see a number of posts by individuals rendering their garments and gnashing their teeth over BF's decision to: "Charge us for a patch!!!!!  Arrgghhhh!"  We saw it with the 2.0 upgrade, we saw it again for the 3.0 upgrade, and we'll see it again with the 4.0 upgrade.  It's as certain as the turning of the earth.

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Here's the deal with the Upgrades.  As before it is always $10 per Family per Upgrade.  The games are all separate, which means they each require separate programming, separate installers, separate testing, and separate support.  There's no reason why someone with 1 game should pay the same as someone with 5 games because the guy with 5 games is getting 5 times as much.  Having said that, because there are now 5 Families involved in this round of Upgrades we are planning on an Upgrade Bundle which offers a discount for buying all 5 at one time.  We will also provide Bundles for Upgrade 3.0 and Upgrade 4.0 as applicable (CMBN and CMFI).  The latter will likely be $15.

As for the question about bringing CMFI up-to-date with Engine 4.0 in order to play the new Module... the short answer is yes, of course if you have Engine 2.0 (the original release) you will need to purchase both Upgrade 3.0 and Upgrade 4.0.

What we've found is that MOST people that continue to have an interest in playing a particular CM Family purchase the Upgrades pretty quickly after they come out.  It's about 1-1.5 years between Upgrades and that means the cost is spread out over that period of time (for example, $0.75 per month).  Someone who skips an Upgrade is only doing themselves a disservice because they will not enjoy the new features over long periods of time and then, if interest continues, will likely purchase them anyway.

Time = money or time = opportunity.  Either way, when you put time into X you aren't able to put it into anything else.  Someone willing to invest time into something should want the greatest return on that investment.  Upgrades offer features and features offer increased enjoyment for the same amount of time spent.  Some features even have the opportunity to decrease time spent (for example UI efficiency improvements, faster loading times, etc.).  Certainly many of them are designed specifically to reduce frustrations/annoyances, therefore increase enjoyment.  The cost of obtaining those features should be weighed against the return on investment.

The more you play, the better the return on investment. Let's say someone plays 20 hours of CM per month fairly consistently.  For one year that's 240 hours of play time.  A $10 Upgrade amounts to $0.05 per hour.  Anybody that thinks an hour of their time isn't worth an additional $0.05 enhancement isn't someone I'd like to hang out with ;)

Steve

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1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

... What we've found is that MOST people that continue to have an interest in playing a particular CM Family purchase the Upgrades pretty quickly after they come out.  It's about 1-1.5 years between Upgrades and that means the cost is spread out over that period of time (for example, $0.75 per month).  Someone who skips an Upgrade is only doing themselves a disservice because they will not enjoy the new features over long periods of time and then, if interest continues, will likely purchase them anyway....

That all sounded completely reasonable to me. (But my god there is going to be so much bitching about around here!! Everyone brace yourselves!)

Personally, I'm looking forward to giving you more of my $$. And yeah, if the CMx2 cost was broken down by hour... well, there's not much else a lot of us could do for that price. Important to keep in mind.

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18 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Yes this.   

While we're on the topic make it $20 per upgrade and hire another programmer so the production speed can increase and we can buy even more stuff at a faster pace.................... I can dream..........:D  

+1 from me. The more support for Battlefront, the better off everyone is. I would love to see what Battlefront could do with an increase in overall resources. Bohemia Interactive (the makers of Arma) definitely benefited from such an event. 

18 hours ago, Macisle said:

Remember, there is no free upgrade option if you want BF to stay in business. There are essentially three choices for feature upgrades in CM:

  1. Paid upgrades at reasonable prices that enhance titles released earlier and keep them current.
  2. New features only coming with new game families and no upgrades to older titles.
  3. BF going out of business and no more Combat Mission products.

IMHO, that’s just about the easiest choice ever.

Exactly!

15 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Absolutely true, but at least a couple of the main whiners have been banned since the last time we went through this.

 

And good riddance to them. I remember a few who seemed to start threads on the forum purely to rustle feathers. It really started to become an annoyance. I'm glad they're gone. 

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

Here's the deal with the Upgrades.  As before it is always $10 per Family per Upgrade.  The games are all separate, which means they each require separate programming, separate installers, separate testing, and separate support.  There's no reason why someone with 1 game should pay the same as someone with 5 games because the guy with 5 games is getting 5 times as much.  Having said that, because there are now 5 Families involved in this round of Upgrades we are planning on an Upgrade Bundle which offers a discount for buying all 5 at one time.  We will also provide Bundles for Upgrade 3.0 and Upgrade 4.0 as applicable (CMBN and CMFI).  The latter will likely be $15.

Sounds great! I for one won't have any problems grabbing the upgrade pack the moment its released. Very much looking forward to it. 

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

The more you play, the better the return on investment. Let's say someone plays 20 hours of CM per month fairly consistently.  For one year that's 240 hours of play time.  A $10 Upgrade amounts to $0.05 per hour.  Anybody that thinks an hour of their time isn't worth an additional $0.05 enhancement isn't someone I'd like to hang out with ;)

This. I understand people with financial restraints, but I honestly do not understand the new trend of complaining and hating anything with a price tag on it. Just look on Steam at the review section on a lot of indie games. "Why is this game priced at so and so?!?! Downvote! Bad!" I imagine its one of the reasons Battlefront has avoided Steam, and for that I'm grateful. I really can't think of an activity that is so inexpensive per hour as video games in general. Why people complain so much about the initial price of a massively financially beneficial investment is beyond me. Although that would go to show why so many people are bad with budgeting...

 

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I don't care about paying for the updates, it's already a wonder that BFC continue to keep their old releases up to date. It's a pitty that they don't do so for CMSF and CMA, too. I bet most CMSF fans would pay 30 or 40 bucks for a CMSF 4.0. 

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8 hours ago, Scipio said:

I don't care about paying for the updates, it's already a wonder that BFC continue to keep their old releases up to date. It's a pitty that they don't do so for CMSF and CMA, too. I bet most CMSF fans would pay 30 or 40 bucks for a CMSF 4.0. 

Hell I would pay $60 for an upgrade to CMSF and all the modules. The amount of content in that one game is staggering. I still love to play it from time to time. It can be hard going all the way back though, due to the many upgrades to the engine that has come along that CMSF now lacks. I know Battlefront has said that they would like to see CMSF fully upgraded, but I think they said that they would have to rebuild the game at this point, as the original is too far gone. 

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I would think that the biggest effort would be to reassign the oob tables, 'cause this and the QB engine were the biggest changes in CMx2v2.0. But they have all the 3D models and textures completed, and all the scenarios and campaigns are ready and playtested. Looks to me that they would have to do much less as for a new release from scratch.

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On 02/10/2016 at 6:50 PM, Battlefront.com said:

Here's the deal with the Upgrades.  As before it is always $10 per Family per Upgrade.  The games are all separate, which means they each require separate programming, separate installers, separate testing, and separate support.  There's no reason why someone with 1 game should pay the same as someone with 5 games because the guy with 5 games is getting 5 times as much.  Having said that, because there are now 5 Families involved in this round of Upgrades we are planning on an Upgrade Bundle which offers a discount for buying all 5 at one time.  We will also provide Bundles for Upgrade 3.0 and Upgrade 4.0 as applicable (CMBN and CMFI).  The latter will likely be $15.

.....

The more you play, the better the return on investment. Let's say someone plays 20 hours of CM per month fairly consistently.  For one year that's 240 hours of play time.  A $10 Upgrade amounts to $0.05 per hour.  Anybody that thinks an hour of their time isn't worth an additional $0.05 enhancement isn't someone I'd like to hang out with ;)

Steve

Hurrah! Put me down for a bundle ...

Though I would happily pay the $10 for each of them if that was how they were made available.     Ooops: perhaps I shouldn't have said that :D

 

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Steve,

Wonderful stuff--which I'll have to delve into in depth when I haven't been up all night!  Would like to ask if anything's included regarding the ability to decrew heavy weapons and then reman them, just as AFV crews can do? This isn't the same question as the one about taking crew remnants from destroyed ATGs and the like and combining them with damaged crews of functioning weapons.

Also, and I know this isn't a Vehicle Pack or Module issue, but could you guys please, please update the CMBN Demo? It's the ancient 1.03 currently, and 4.0 will only make things that much worse. To me, you are doing yourselves no favors by not updating it. As things stand, the Forumites, by laying out for prospects who do drop by and ask, some of the major differences between the actual game and its rather limited ancestor,  have probably helped get you sales the CMBN Demo otherwise wouldn't have.

Hellmann,

On 9/26/2016 at 10:08 AM, Hellmann said:

Now I'm really going Nuts! (re: Lt. Gen. Harry W.O. Kinnard's BotB message) :)

You have the wrong US general. It was Brigadier General Anthony McAuliffe, and the full account of this wonderful story, which is not just about of the Battle of the Bulge, and the US Army's part in it, but of the US military, the Allies, the nation at war and more. His uncompromising reply of "NUTS!" to a formal demand of surrender was and is an iconic event which resonates to this day.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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Hardradi,

Welcome aboard!

Upgrade cost expressed in pub drink equivalents? Why not? You should see the extensive analyses of CM game value vs FPS games and the discourses on hours of entertainment per dollar spent in comparing CM to things like going to the movies, concert tickets, cable TV and a bunch of other options. I think, though, your analytical tool is a real winner. Would celebrate your econometric genius with a drink, but the Sun isn't up yet, never mind being over the yardarm!

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

Edited by John Kettler
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