I miss the AI behaviour of CMx1...

[Macisle]

Here is a QB technique I sometimes use that seems to work well for infantry battles on maps with plentiful buildings:

• Open a QB Map (can be a scenario map, but you need to clean it up first) you like in the Editor and save it as a scenario.
• For the enemy side, make a clean AI plan and turn off all the others.
• Paint an enemy setup blob near the bulidings in the AI plan.
• Add a second order and paint individual dots only inside buildings. Paint them all this way and make it a Quick move.
• Choose say, a company of infantry for the enemy, plus arty.
• Give yourself a company of infantry, plus whatever support you want.
• Setup the initial deployment of your side to make sure the units are in the correct setup zone at launch.
• Make sure the enemy is deploying on its side of the map
  (but the initial setup blob should put them in the correct area anyway).

With this technique, you know what the enemy has, but you don't know which buildings he is in and you have to find him and dig him out. The normal QB system almost never puts units inside buildings, even if the buildings are blob-painted in the Editor. I've experimented (a bit -- not trying to be definitive) and it seems that the only way to reliably get them inside is to make the battle a scenario and either set them up yourself with no moves, or use the technique above with a setup blob followed by move orders that lead inside buildings only.

I usually go with 1:1 infantry ratios and maybe give myself a bit of armor, like 2 tanks/some HTs.

Adding ATGs and enemy armor is of course, possible, but that makes things more complicated to set up and requires testing, so I've kept it simple for a truly "Quick" battle. You can be ready to play in under 15 minutes this way.

Oh, and I don't usually bother with victory locations. The enemy is either wiped out, or I run out of men.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Macisle
Adding info

[kohlenklau]

I played a CMFI Tiny Agricultural QB Battle that Heirloom Tomato had reprocessed and have beefed it up a tad. Renamed as V1 at the end. 

Beefed up = adjusted AI plan and such. 

Here she is and load in scenario folder and play either side.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vi60xni71briyqb/Meet Tiny Ag (water) 273 battle 003V1.btt?dl=0

[Heirloom_Tomato]

I will try as well. I have BN-with all the goodies, RT and FI. take your pick and I will see what I can do.

[kohlenklau]

Where do we put these things for easy access download? 

Maybe each forum has a thread for QB Hybrids or whatever is the term voted on.

"A former QB map with rough AI plans that was opened in the editor and tweaked to make it better and then has to go in the scenario folder."

Or can somehow the filename give the clue or whatever?

[Heirloom_Tomato]

@Bulletpoint the difference is the blind QB has no briefing, no map, no fancy graphics, just like a QB.

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

What's the difference between a blind QB and a scenario?

I suppose a blind QB is a scenario on a QB map.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

17 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

Where do we put these things for easy access download?

If you mean on a permanent basis then they should go to the Scenario Depot - IMHO.  Could be put up in packs or individually - I think that depends on how many get made.

[Heirloom_Tomato]

I don't want to derail this thread from talking about the AI and how to make it better. For more information on the Quick Scenarios or Advanced Quick Scenarios please see this thread in the CMFI forum.

 

[Heirloom_Tomato]

@Macisle your idea for infantry in towns and cities sounds great. I have been trying to figure something similar out and will give this a try. Thanks for posting your idea.

[MisterMark]

On 8/21/2016 at 8:13 PM, kohlenklau said:

I played a CMFI Tiny Agricultural QB Battle that Heirloom Tomato had reprocessed and have beefed it up a tad. Renamed as V1 at the end. 

Beefed up = adjusted AI plan and such. 

Here she is and load in scenario folder and play either side.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vi60xni71briyqb/Meet Tiny Ag (water) 273 battle 003V1.btt?dl=0

@kohlenklau - FYI, I downloaded this file and put it in my scenario folder for CMFI and can't seem to find it when I try to selected from the 'Battle' menu.  I also loaded it in the scenario editor to see if something was corrupt with it and it seems to not have any parameters or units set...  It didn't even have a map other than the stock flat grass map that is defaulted when you first create a new scenario.  Maybe it's a problem on my end?   Anyone else?

-Mark

 

[Macisle]

3 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

@Macisle your idea for infantry in towns and cities sounds great. I have been trying to figure something similar out and will give this a try. Thanks for posting your idea.

Thanks for the thanks! I've had some very fun battles using it.

[Bulletpoint]

On 8/22/2016 at 3:05 AM, Macisle said:

Here is a QB technique I sometimes use that seems to work well for infantry battles on maps with plentiful buildings:

• Open a QB Map (can be a scenario map, but you need to clean it up first) you like in the Editor and save it as a scenario.
• For the enemy side, make a clean AI plan and turn off all the others.
• Paint an enemy setup blob near the bulidings in the AI plan.
• Add a second order and paint individual dots only inside buildings. Paint them all this way and make it a Quick move.
• Choose say, a company of infantry for the enemy, plus arty.
• Give yourself a company of infantry, plus whatever support you want.
• Setup the initial deployment of your side to make sure the units are in the correct setup zone at launch.
• Make sure the enemy is deploying on its side of the map
  (but the initial setup blob should put them in the correct area anyway).

With this technique, you know what the enemy has, but you don't know which buildings he is in and you have to find him and dig him out. The normal QB system almost never puts units inside buildings, even if the buildings are blob-painted in the Editor. I've experimented (a bit -- not trying to be definitive) and it seems that the only way to reliably get them inside is to make the battle a scenario and either set them up yourself with no moves, or use the technique above with a setup blob followed by move orders that lead inside buildings only.

Not sure why you would paint the big blob first. Wouldn't it be simpler to just paint the enemy buildings individually as setup-zone? That's what I do in my scenarios, to make the AI setup in various places each time - for replayability.

[George MC]

Worth noting that AI units e.g. AI Group 2 can only 'fit' inside a building if they can err...fit inside a building. So if AI Group 2 is a platoon it'll not fit a wee cottage and therefore AI will not take up it's designated place. Whereas if AI Group 2 is a squad - no problem.

[Heirloom_Tomato]

5 hours ago, MisterMark said:

@kohlenklau - FYI, I downloaded this file and put it in my scenario folder for CMFI and can't seem to find it when I try to selected from the 'Battle' menu.  I also loaded it in the scenario editor to see if something was corrupt with it and it seems to not have any parameters or units set...  It didn't even have a map other than the stock flat grass map that is defaulted when you first create a new scenario.  Maybe it's a problem on my end?   Anyone else?

-Mark

 

I had no problems with it. The battle features units from the Gustav Line module. do you have it?

[Macisle]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Not sure why you would paint the big blob first. Wouldn't it be simpler to just paint the enemy buildings individually as setup-zone? That's what I do in my scenarios, to make the AI setup in various places each time - for replayability.

IIRC, I tried painting the buildings only as setup zones first, but got weird results. Maybe because of what George MC mentioned. The setup blob and move technique seems to work pretty consistently. Variation for replayability can be added by adding more plans with different painting (assuming map allows for it). Also, I would guess that the AI won't put the same troops in the same spots each time, so there may be inherent variation--again assuming the map allows for it.

I generally don't play these more than once each. Just 15 minutes or so to set up, go, and delete.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, you need to allow time for the AI to get to the buildings without being spotted. So, I add some extra time and then wait out of LOS in the setup zone until I think the AI is likely finished.

[Bulletpoint]

28 minutes ago, Macisle said:

IIRC, I tried painting the buildings only as setup zones first, but got weird results.

What do you mean by weird?

If you mean sometimes troops deploy outside the building, I think I have the cure for that.

It happens when you paint a square that contains part of a building but also something like a low wall or hedge. Troops might stick to the hedge rather than go inside. Sometimes they just plain refuse to deploy to such squares.

The solution is to only paint the corner of the building that only contains open ground and the part of the house.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[Macisle]

3 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

What do you mean by weird?

If you mean sometimes troops deploy outside the building, I think I have the cure for that.

It happens when you paint a square that contains part of a building but also something like a low wall or hedge. Troops might stick to the hedge rather than go inside. Sometimes they just plain refuse to deploy to such squares.

The solution is to only paint the corner of the building that only contains open ground and the part of the house.

It's been a long time since I tested it, but to my recollection, I wasn't getting consistent troops in buildings. Also, I seem to remember instances of massive bunching up of troops, but that may have been when I tried painted buildings only for actual QB maps (using the QB system, rather than making a scenario).

If my memory is correct, I discovered that painting a setup blob first and then moving to painted buildings (only) makes the AI more consistently use the buildings. I haven't gone back to test the other method since then.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Macisle said:

It's been a long time since I tested it, but to my recollection, I wasn't getting consistent troops in buildings. Also, I seem to remember instances of massive bunching up of troops, but that may have been when I tried painted buildings only for actual QB maps (using the QB system, rather than making a scenario).

If my memory is correct, I discovered that painting a setup blob first and then moving to painted buildings (only) makes the AI more consistently use the buildings. I haven't gone back to test the other method since then.

I think you might see buncing up if you have, say, a single house in a big open field and you then paint the whole field with a setup blob. All the troops will then choose the spot with most cover to deploy, in this case the house.

But the system is indeed very strange, and I am also getting some weird results when designing a scenario. Sometimes, the AI refuses to deploy to one particular square, other times it "falls in love" with a square and always deploys there no matter how many other options it has. I wish I understood the system better, but I have been experimenting with it for hours and still haven't figured out what makes the AI likesome places and hate others.

[Macisle]

10 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think you might see buncing up if you have, say, a single house in a big open field and you then paint the whole field with a setup blob. All the troops will then choose the spot with most cover to deploy, in this case the house.

But the system is indeed very strange, and I am also getting some weird results when designing a scenario. Sometimes, the AI refuses to deploy to one particular square, other times it "falls in love" with a square and always deploys there no matter how many other options it has. I wish I understood the system better, but I have been experimenting with it for hours and still haven't figured out what makes the AI likesome places and hate others.

The bunching up happened on maps with lots of buildings. But again, it may have been when I was trying to use a map with only the buildings painted for setup in the actual QB system of the game, rather than playing it as a scenario. When that happened, I don't think any AI troops set up in buildings, despite the painting.

Yeah, if Santy could give me one AI tweak for Xmas, I think I'd ask for "make the AI use buildings on its own!" He-he.

My current AI tar baby is a couple of cases of runaway MG teams. For the life of me, I can't seem to get them to follow their AI plan orders. That's holding up an actual scenario I'm working on. The most likely culprit is a stray painted action square somewhere that I am unaware of, but I can't find any. I may have to just make them reinforcements arriving later.

[kohlenklau]

@MisterMark

Hmmm. I will take a look later today after work.

I have the latest patched version of CMFI GL FYI.

[kohlenklau]

I checked my "AQS" CMFI scenario and it seemed fine on my end.