CMx3 with "real" TCP/IP WEGO?

[Pandur]

i havent been loged in here for ages, i just have a look from time to time on the main page to see whats going on with the CMx2 engine.

since multiplayer in CMx2 is a total failure to me, and the long awaited update for a proper TCP/IP WEGO mode with darn replay never came to be, as it is supposedly to hard to do, i can only hope for good multiplayer in CMx3 by now, if there will be a CMx3 engine at all.

before you start, yes i try realtime multiplayer(back in 2007) and that was horrible, i tried PBEM with PBEM helper(as TCP/IP wego replacement). i finished one 40 turn scenario(in red thunder) in like 10 hours, of which about 5 hours have been waiting for transfer and save game loading. needless to say this is terrible.

i play the AI to death, the game got highly repetitive and no new installment of CMx2 could fix that for me(i hung in for shockforce, west and east front). after all its all the same in a way. find, fix, destroy(flank) and that is over and over again. the AI scripting is to crude to keep it fun against the AI. new TOE and equip doesnt change how a CMx2 battle is fought, it just changes the tools somewhat.

so what i want to ask is there even talk about CMx3? i mean CMx1 engine, when i count from CMBO release in 2000 make it 7 years to 2007 with shockforce release. now CMx2 is 9 years old, i hope CMx3 is in the works in some way.

CMx1 has been brilliant with great multiplayer, CMx2 is even better for me but with non existant multiplayer for me, none of it makes fun and is enjoyable like it used to be in CMx1. so i realy hope CMx3 will fix that and combine best of both. good single with proper HtH multiplayer options.

 

[kevinkin]

Hey, welcome back. Your interest in a re-vamped multiplayer is held by many so I would expect any CM3 would address that in a meaningful way. I can't imagine a world without CM3, so hang in there. But I would be interested in any reccos for war games with good scripting editors since I enjoy the CM editor and probably would try anything out there if the game is grounded in something realistic. Past, present or future. 

Kevin

Edited July 14, 2016 by kevinkin

[Pandur]

17 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Your interest in a re-vamped multiplayer is held by many so I would expect any CM3 would address that in a meaningful way.

i would love to share your optimism in this. in my view i expect exactly the opposite. would be great if BFC prove me wrong.

17 hours ago, kevinkin said:

But I would be interested in any reccos for war games with good scripting editors since I enjoy the CM editor and probably would try anything out there if the game is grounded in something realistic. Past, present or future. 

mate unfortunately there isnt anything alike, there are the graviteam games but there are some differences. thats what pains me the most, a game that is so much like a game i real enjoy, is realistic, attention to detail, more slow paced, has editor blah blah... but than multiplayer sucks. it was such a big letdown to me in summer 2007 as everyone "discovered" there is no TCP/IP wego. i am still not over that and i crave my CM multiplayer fix like i used to get it in CMx1. 9 years past and i still cant let go of this, iam a stubborn idiot you must know.

 

so has there be any words droped by steve or someone that would indicate cmx3 is even a thing?

[JoMac]

On 7/14/2016 at 2:55 AM, Pandur said:

i havent been loged in here for ages, i just have a look from time to time on the main page to see whats going on with the CMx2 engine.

since multiplayer in CMx2 is a total failure to me, and the long awaited update for a proper TCP/IP WEGO mode with darn replay never came to be, as it is supposedly to hard to do, i can only hope for good multiplayer in CMx3 by now, if there will be a CMx3 engine at all.

before you start, yes i try realtime multiplayer(back in 2007) and that was horrible, i tried PBEM with PBEM helper(as TCP/IP wego replacement). i finished one 40 turn scenario(in red thunder) in like 10 hours, of which about 5 hours have been waiting for transfer and save game loading. needless to say this is terrible.

i play the AI to death, the game got highly repetitive and no new installment of CMx2 could fix that for me(i hung in for shockforce, west and east front). after all its all the same in a way. find, fix, destroy(flank) and that is over and over again. the AI scripting is to crude to keep it fun against the AI. new TOE and equip doesnt change how a CMx2 battle is fought, it just changes the tools somewhat.

so what i want to ask is there even talk about CMx3? i mean CMx1 engine, when i count from CMBO release in 2000 make it 7 years to 2007 with shockforce release. now CMx2 is 9 years old, i hope CMx3 is in the works in some way.

CMx1 has been brilliant with great multiplayer, CMx2 is even better for me but with non existant multiplayer for me, none of it makes fun and is enjoyable like it used to be in CMx1. so i realy hope CMx3 will fix that and combine best of both. good single with proper HtH multiplayer options.

 

Oh Chit, he just opened Pandora's Box...

[weapon2010]

Pandur

 

So you dont like pbem muti-player?

[Pandur]

20 hours ago, weapon2010 said:

Pandur

 

So you dont like pbem muti-player?

in short; no

i used to call it play by carrier pigeon, cause thats what it is. i understand persons that can only play a few turns by day but that is not me. i could sit down for 5+ hour straight or lot more and play a TCP/IP wego match with a mate back in CMBB days. and i still could do it for CMx2, but there is no longer the mode for it.

 

me and a real life mate of mine, we´ve been so stupid, try play a TCP/IP game with PBEM helper. as said about 40 turns that means;

1. 40 times ~2 minutes looking at the loading screen loading, this by 2 for both persons as you can no longer order simultaneous. result is ~160 minutes looking at loading screen.

2. opponents can not order at the same time, waiting for opponents orders while i cant even talk to him properly on TS cause hes busy thinking how to kill my dudes. (i am slow in orders phase, i accumulate lots of wait time for him while i make orders as attacker)

3. waiting for transfer, which wasnt so bad on my side, i had about 200kb/s upload at the time(almost 1k kb/s now), i send him my file quick, but he send with 50ish kb/s, more waiting.

 

as i wrote, the whole session took about 10 hours, start 1900 hours in evening, my russians steamroll him in early morning hours around 4-5 o clock. total time spend with the game about 50% of the time. rest of it was just waiting

it felt good to have played a proper CMx2 multiplayer game with replay, but that was about it, none of us had the stamina to repeat that, not even for CMx2 multiplayer which we both enjoy(ed) a lot.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Pandur

[Catacol Highlander]

Totally agree with you Pandur. CM2 killed the CM franchise for me because it wrecked TCP multiplayer. The CM1 WeGo principle was brilliant - but it disappeared in reality with CM2. Playing by email is ok.... but to be honest pbem games are losing a bit of their lustre. An ability to play simultaneously with chat is far better.

I pop back from time to time to this forum to see what is going on - hoping that perhaps the realtime clickfest approach of CM2 has made BF enough money that they might be able to bring back the thoughtful elements of the game that were at the core of CM1. I continue to live in hope.

[kevinkin]

Curious as to what you guys have found to war game. I really need to check it out. I think I am up to date, but maybe not. You have not just given up the hobby? No way. Development tools that support multiplayer are now much better. And given gaming trends over the past few years I would expect CM to ride the multiplayer wave with some new system. So I would check back often and contribute to the discussion re: multiplayer.     

Kevin 

[Pandur]

steve said at some thread some time ago, cant remember exactly, that coop, or coplay, where 2 persons can play on same side is not finacially viable.

i think the "replay" in TCP/IP wego suffers the same fate, it is doable, it may be not easy but its doable. all other reasons are just a excuse, i think the commercial viablility is the real problem why we still dont have it.

for some time i was hopeing there comes a "CM:NwR" module ( Now with Replay). not sure for what CM family, but thats not my problem i did not had the idea with the tons of different games. no matter what CM title, i would buy it asap with the replay module if i dont have it already.

too bad the "cm is a mainly single player game" line that steve used to drop in one form or another is a self fulfilling prophecy. and by now it is fulfilled. take away the fun multiplay mode and the game becomes a single player only expirience for most and by now it is.

the crowd that played TCP/IP wego was enraged in 2007, now 9 years later they are dispersed and moved on or have been banned in the heat of 2007. there was a market for TCP/ip wego with replay back in 2007, much more so than today where there is almost no one left that wishes this mode back.

its hopeless, i long for this mode yet i know it will never return, the former glory of cmx1 gone and trampled in the dust. now you say, why dont you just get laid? you right i could do that but its not the same, i want TCP/IP WEGO with replay

 

@kevinkin

i play spintires (1400 hours now loged :P), and other random crap. there is no replacement for CM realy. i even went back and play some CMRT vs AI again, its such a nice game, but a sad sad situation.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Pandur

[Pak40]

On 7/16/2016 at 3:25 AM, Pandur said:

me and a real life mate of mine, we´ve been so stupid, try play a TCP/IP game with PBEM helper. as said about 40 turns that means;

1. 40 times ~2 minutes looking at the loading screen loading, this by 2 for both persons as you can no longer order simultaneous. result is ~160 minutes looking at loading screen.

2. opponents can not order at the same time, waiting for opponents orders while i cant even talk to him properly on TS cause hes busy thinking how to kill my dudes. (i am slow in orders phase, i accumulate lots of wait time for him while i make orders as attacker)

3. waiting for transfer, which wasnt so bad on my side, i had about 200kb/s upload at the time(almost 1k kb/s now), i send him my file quick, but he send with 50ish kb/s, more waiting.

 

1 hour ago, Pandur said:

 

steve said at some thread some time ago, cant remember exactly, that coop, or coplay, where 2 persons can play on same side is not finacially viable.

i think the "replay" in TCP/IP wego suffers the same fate, it is doable, it may be not easy but its doable. all other reasons are just a excuse, i think the commercial viablility is the real problem why we still dont have it.

 

Since you're original post was about CMx3, the quotes from Steve in the past about financial viability may not apply to the new engine. Also keep in mind that if and when they do develop CMx3, things like "~2 minutes looking at loading the screen" probably won't be an issue since it will be in a different 3D engine. So, if they don't provide a valid TCP/IP method of play then we can still resort to PBEM with much faster load times.

I sincerely hope that CMFB is the last of the CMx2 engine. I know they have some x2 modules to release but as far as "new games" I hope CMFB is last one.

 

[SgtHatred]

4 hours ago, Pandur said:

 

too bad the "cm is a mainly single player game" line that steve used to drop in one form or another is a self fulfilling prophecy. and by now it is fulfilled. take away the fun multiplay mode and the game becomes a single player only expirience for most and by now it is.

the crowd that played TCP/IP wego was enraged in 2007, now 9 years later they are dispersed and moved on or have been banned in the heat of 2007. there was a market for TCP/ip wego with replay back in 2007, much more so than today where there is almost no one left that wishes this mode back.

its hopeless, i long for this mode yet i know it will never return, the former glory of cmx1 gone and trampled in the dust. now you say, why dont you just get laid? you right i could do that but its not the same, i want TCP/IP WEGO with replay

 

woof. Combat Mission is pretty bad as a singleplayer game. That's not really a knock against it though. All strategy games are terrible singleplayer games. The AI is as bad in this game as it is in every other strategy game, and I don't see any accomplishment in defeating it.

 

Playing against someone who can (at least theoretically) outwit my dog is critical to enjoyment.

[PIATpunk]

I'm quite grateful that the enforced 1 minute pause was added in to TCP play and has been bug-fixed along the way.  If you have the luxury of an opponent in the same time zone, this is a brilliant way to play the game, particularly with voice comms.  Another advantage of this style of play is that you can knock off a small/medium QB over a couple of evenings rather than a protracted 6 week period via pbm.   I get that you can't rewind but I have put that down to being more 'realistic' in a way.  This is a more 'seat of the pants' style of play than pbm.

[kevinkin]

Interesting the way some players enjoy PBEM which conjures up the bygone era of postal chess and other players enjoy a “death match” analogous in some ways to a modern twitch fest FPS. Pluses and minuses with either style, but both styles using the same software.

[A Canadian Cat]

17 hours ago, Pandur said:

too bad the "cm is a mainly single player game" line that steve used to drop in one form or another is a self fulfilling prophecy. and by now it is fulfilled. take away the fun multiplay mode and the game becomes a single player only expirience for most and by now it is.

the crowd that played TCP/IP wego was enraged in 2007, now 9 years later they are dispersed and moved on or have been banned in the heat of 2007. there was a market for TCP/ip wego with replay back in 2007, much more so than today where there is almost no one left that wishes this mode back.

You have a point for sure.  I remember reading the thread that floated the idea that PBEM would not be in CM2x.  Yikes.  As someone who will never be playing this in RT mode and just cannot enjoy beating the AI that would have meant I would never have been a customer.  I am sure the game would have done well, perhaps just as well but I would not be here.  My issue with RT is not philosophical, it is the simple fact that I do not have hour or multi hour uninterrupted blocks of time to play games.  I just don't.  So no RT no WEGO TCP/ip for me it just will never happen.  So if a game does not offer some turn based way to play I will not be a customer.  And I would not have been here to advocate for various things along the way.  Not that anyone would really miss my contributions but my point is if there are indeed customers who are not here because WEGO TCP/IP is not in the game then their voices, concerns are absent too.  I get that Steve has to prioritize what his team works on so he made is call and it is what it is.

 

17 hours ago, Pandur said:

 now you say, why dont you just get laid? you right i could do that but its not the same, i want TCP/IP WEGO with replay

Hilarious

[Pandur]

On 7/21/2016 at 0:45 AM, Pak40 said:

I sincerely hope that CMFB is the last of the CMx2 engine. I know they have some x2 modules to release but as far as "new games" I hope CMFB is last one.

 

 

i am not sure myself, i like the cmx2 engine, maybe cmx3 is a mobile game, maybe a browser game? i am not sure i would like that. who know what ideas they may have in future. it could be all good but somehow i doubt it. so i was kinda happy with cmx2 till i couldnt take playing the AI anymore.

On 7/21/2016 at 4:11 AM, PIATpunk said:

 I get that you can't rewind but I have put that down to being more 'realistic' in a way.  This is a more 'seat of the pants' style of play than pbm.

for me the replay makes or breaks the whole thing. with no replay you lack a lot of information, the bigger the scenario the more info you lack, and i dont like that type of gameplay at all.

i like to disassemble and view the replay in parts for every conflict zone on the map to get the situational awareness of whats goin on there. without that its a "guesstimation" game, no longer battle chess. i dont like that at all

 

 

not sure what else to say, it seems cmx3 is nowhere in sight, and the replay idea is completely removed from in cmx2. heck the whole multiplayer is a lip servece in cmx2. that is sad, but since 2007 i got older and i can take it a lot better now. we could keep this thread spinning for a bit, maybe we can bait steve into revealing what he thinks about multiplayer in combat mission, now and in future. and of how a lackluster multiplayer makes a game a single player game over time. and how to fix that.

but ultimately its pointless i think.

[Pak40]

On 7/25/2016 at 9:31 AM, Pandur said:

 

i am not sure myself, i like the cmx2 engine, maybe cmx3 is a mobile game, maybe a browser game? i am not sure i would like that. who know what ideas they may have in future. it could be all good but somehow i doubt it. so i was kinda happy with cmx2 till i couldnt take playing the AI anymore.

I like the CMx2 engine also but it's run it's course. CMx3 engine better not be a mobile game. That's a horrible thought. Not sure if browser based is a viable option for an advanced wargame.

[Battlefront.com]

Our problem is that not only does everybody want the game to be all things, but they demand that it be.  Being all things to all people simply isn't something we can pull off.  Give us a couple extra million and we might get pretty close to satisfying the wargaming niche, but we'd never get paid back for it and so that's not a sustainable approach.  Which means we do have to be careful about what we do and do not put into our games since everything we do comes at a cost.

We definitely appreciate the fact that being unable to satisfy everybody's wants/desires means there's going to be some people left out in the cold.  Even dedicated wargamers.  It's something we have to accept, though we understand why people don't like hearing it.  Nobody likes being told their personal want/desire is not going to happen.  Just check the headlines from the US Democratic Convention and Sanders supporters

That being said... of course at some point CMx2 will be retired and CMx3 will take its place.  Just like CMx2 was to CMx1, CMx3 will be to CMx2 in terms of engineering.  Meaning... built fresh, from the ground up and not some cobbled together Frankenstein.  The technology (soft and hard) that is available today vs. 2004 (when CMx2 coding started) is night and day different.  Which means, from a technical standpoint, CMx3 will be able to do everything CMx2 did, do it better, and do it with plenty of new capabilities which CMx2 simply wasn't capable of handling.  I can assure you that the benefit of having more/better multiplayer options is not lost on us.

Steve

[Bulletpoint]

15 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Nobody likes being told their personal want/desire is not going to happen.  Just check the headlines from the US Democratic Convention and Sanders supporters

That being said... of course at some point CMx2 will be retired and CMx3 will take its place.  Just like CMx2 was to CMx1, CMx3 will be to CMx2 in terms of engineering.  Meaning... built fresh, from the ground up and not some cobbled together Frankenstein.  The technology (soft and hard) that is available today vs. 2004 (when CMx2 coding started) is night and day different.  Which means, from a technical standpoint, CMx3 will be able to do everything CMx2 did, do it better, and do it with plenty of new capabilities which CMx2 simply wasn't capable of handling.

That sounds so good that I'm willing to stop crying for a moment about Bernie losing.

[PIATpunk]

speaking of Cmx3, hope the dev(s) has taken a good look at the Vulkan API.

[Battlefront.com]

6 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

That sounds so good that I'm willing to stop crying for a moment about Bernie losing.

You're welcome!

54 minutes ago, PIATpunk said:

speaking of Cmx3, hope the dev(s) has taken a good look at the Vulkan API.

There's a lot more API and development environments out there than there used to be, that's for sure.  OpenGL is not, in our opinion, something we want to stay with.

Steve

[AttorneyAtWar]

That's great to hear Steve, looking forward to CMx3.

[Pandur]

oh steve, thanks for chiming in and saying something, but its always a double edged sword with you. i enjoy reading what you write, its informative and usually gives deeper insight into the matter at hand. i read enough post over the years from you so i can say that.

at the same time i hate when you read a post in question and instead of answering the bloody post (no pun intended ) you try to divine its emotional and desire level and than answer yourself the question you would liked to have read. thats what company CEO´s and politicians do, but its kinda annoying in a forums conversation.

with that beeing said;

On 7/27/2016 at 5:52 AM, Battlefront.com said:

I can assure you that the benefit of having more/better multiplayer options is not lost on us.

Steve

this is all you would have needed to say, i like to read that  its good news to my ears and you hit the mark with it. intentional or not.

but i am not sure that better multiplayer is yet another wargamer desire that is negligible like lets say, correct bird sounds in the background for the ornitologic wargamers. you make it sound like it is in a way. yet the benefit of better multiplayer is not lost on you guys. it kinda sounds like 2 different things.

if we zoom out of the multiplayer discussion i can understand very well why you say there are a million wishes, everyone has one, but i guess many have multiplayer somewhere on their list. is not so minor i think.

anyways thats what i think, i am glad you responded and gave us something to chew on. i just wish it wasnt so cryptic in large

thanks,

 

 

Edited August 3, 2016 by Pandur
spelling

[Catacol Highlander]

2.5 years old and bumping this up. I come in occasionally to see what might be happening with multiplayer modes.

Is the 3rd gen engine in design? Will TCP Wego with rewind and replay - or something even better - make it to the design stage? I would return to CM if my opponents and I could meet up online, play tcp and be able to make effective use of Wego and replay. CM was never an arcade game for me - and strategy requires at least a bit of space for brain think...…...

 

[The Steppenwulf]

Two player campaign e-play would be enough for most!

[easytarget]

On 4/15/2019 at 5:31 PM, Catacol Highlander said:

2.5 years old and bumping this up. I come in occasionally to see what might be happening with multiplayer modes.

Is the 3rd gen engine in design? Will TCP Wego with rewind and replay - or something even better - make it to the design stage? I would return to CM if my opponents and I could meet up online, play tcp and be able to make effective use of Wego and replay. CM was never an arcade game for me - and strategy requires at least a bit of space for brain think...…...

 

This is why I just stopped in as well.  Got a friend that wants to buy this and play live turn based.  Looks like I'll stop back by 3 or 4 years from now.