Any good books on Russian small unit (company and under - possibly battalion) tactics?

[RAM-bo4250]

I see most good players playing the Russian side as if they were other country's units (ie:western tactics). What exactly were the Russian small unit tactics? Was it like small human wave tactics not caring about casualties or what? Did they use fire and maneuver tactics? Base of fire, etc?

If not a book, can the grogs write up something answering my questions?  

 

Thank you. Ron.

Edited June 30, 2016 by RAM-bo4250

[76mm]

If you search for some of JasonC's posts, I'm sure you'll find the answers there...

[RAM-bo4250]

4 hours ago, 76mm said:

If you search for some of JasonC's posts, I'm sure you'll find the answers there...

Thanks 76mm I was thinking of going that way. I'm still hoping for a good book on the subject.

[George MC]

7 hours ago, RAM-bo4250 said:

Thanks 76mm I was thinking of going that way. I'm still hoping for a good book on the subject.

Not books as such but some articles I've found on the interweb and Jason C's post on the subject condensed into one - all at the tactical level.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pdy64puraa6h185/AAADJ0plhpuszEVVcLGoYay8a?dl=0

[kevinkin]

Thanks for the valuable compilation George. I made few missions for my own curiosity based on the Soviet recon push method. The TOE at the tip of the spear is nice to play with except the Soviet armored cars are cannon fodder. The German ACs seem to be able to live long enough to escape to alternate positions. But they too have to high tail it. They filter back around the flanks to regain lost objectives. Also, finding good positions for Soviet DF artillery (76 mm) can slow the push down and they often do not participate in the battle except to hold ground won by the lead infantry and armor. Good for countering the German AC tactic however. Of course, the time it takes to position guns is an ongoing discussion around here. 

Kevin

[George MC]

21 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

Thanks for the valuable compilation George. I made few missions for my own curiosity based on the Soviet recon push method. The TOE at the tip of the spear is nice to play with except the Soviet armored cars are cannon fodder. The German ACs seem to be able to live long enough to escape to alternate positions. But they too have to high tail it. They filter back around the flanks to regain lost objectives. Also, finding good positions for Soviet DF artillery (76 mm) can slow the push down and they often do not participate in the battle except to hold ground won by the lead infantry and armor. Good for countering the German AC tactic however. Of course, the time it takes to position guns is an ongoing discussion around here. 

Kevin

No worries - hope they are of use.

Re Soviet armoured cars they work in game if they are used more for spotting. But for that to have worth you need to have spotting victory conditions. I use this in a recent scenario where the Soviets get points for spotting German units. I have the AI plan move them into OPs overlooking possible German lines of advance, then pull back when the German trigger  the appropriate AI plan.

I have also found that larger maps make a lot of this work as the Soviets can use the distance to observe and also set up guns for long range DF.

[RAM-bo4250]

9 hours ago, George MC said:

Not books as such but some articles I've found on the interweb and Jason C's post on the subject condensed into one - all at the tactical level.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pdy64puraa6h185/AAADJ0plhpuszEVVcLGoYay8a?dl=0

Thank you George. That should keep me going for a while. A search of Jason's posts also yielded good results. I should glean whatever I need from all the valuable information you guys provided.

Thanks all again.

Ron

[DMS]

You don't mean city or mountain tactics, right?

There is not much tactics on that level. Battalion usually had 500-800m front line to place 2 companies in first echelone and 1 in second. Or all 3 in the 1st echelone. Battalions usually were undermanned and underequiped. (but not in CM, in the game it is full strenth) Consider Soviet battalion as U.S. company. (IRL)

For example:

Only thing is to move simultaniously with neigbour units. I play in CM in that way: short fast advances on 20-50 metres by all units formed in line, Lie down, rest. Another rush. And so on. "Slow" or "assault" command in case of hard resistance. MGs and mortars supress German MGs. (real time, without pauses)

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by DMS

[RAM-bo4250]

4 hours ago, DMS said:

You don't mean city or mountain tactics, right?

There is not much tactics on that level. Battalion usually had 500-800m front line to place 2 companies in first echelone and 1 in second. Or all 3 in the 1st echelone. Battalions usually were undermanned and underequiped. (but not in CM, in the game it is full strenth) Consider Soviet battalion as U.S. company. (IRL)

For example:

Only thing is to move simultaniously with neigbour units. I play in CM in that way: short fast advances on 20-50 metres by all units formed in line, Lie down, rest. Another rush. And so on. "Slow" or "assault" command in case of hard resistance. MGs and mortars supress German MGs. (real time, without pauses)

 

No DMS, question is not geared toward any specific unit or fighting. More geared to general tactics. I never really fully understood the echelon of units in an offensive way. With the two up, one back most armies use echelon in attack. it seems there has always been a lot of talk about the Russians using human wave. I just never really understood what that entailed. I'm slowly learning through all the great knowledge on this board how the Russians fought. Recon push vs recon pull. I was curious from watching Red Thunder videos how most players were using the Russians. Tactically it seems most armies used similar tactics. Where they differ is operationally which is not the level CM is modelling. At least that was where my confusion was.

Thanks for your input DMS

Ron

 

[DMS]

Ron, there was at least 1 case when waves were used. 3rd guard division at Crimea 1944.

1-st line - 8 platoons x 25 men, After 1-st line moves 150-200 metres - 2nd line attacks, 8 platoons x 25 men, 3rd line - 10 platoons, 4th - 6 platoons, 5th - 4 platoons. Platoons marked as coloured dots on the map.

But it was an exception, may be one of the staff officers had 1st world war experience. Usually "waves" were echeloned companies, up to 4 echelones for the regiment.

Source

[kevinkin]

There are two books that I believe you can still find: "Soviet Tactical Doctrine in WWII by Caza" and "Soviet Armored Tactics in WII by Sharp". The first is from German sources and the second from Soviet. Both of my copies are English. They discuss down to platoon level in the armor book and battalion in the first. Both are books on doctrine where units are fully supplied, with start lines and objectives laid out. We know this often does not correspond to how units fight under fire. But you might want to look into them. In larger scenarios, the recon push and pull methods can be simulated using CM. But I think players handling the Soviet side will fall back on tactics they are familiar with and this will depend on the situation presented. Since there has never been a conclusion as to whether the Soviet or German tactical doctrine was "better", a flexible; approach seems reasonable when the weapon systems are similar. Both armies tried to maximize their small unit fire power on the enemy while minimizing their exposure to return fire. On the offense via fire and movement and the defense via field fortifications and alike. 

Kevin

 

[John Kettler]

RAM-bo4250,

Welcome aboard!

BFC used to sell the Nafziger Collection Soviet Infantry Tactics in World War II, by Charles Sharp, but doesn't anymore. Judging from the ad copy, it covers exactly what you're looking for. The armored tactics book, which BFC also used to sell, and others are there as well.

(Fair Use)

"Developed using Soviet tactical regulations, this work examines the tactical employment of the Soviet rifle squad, platoon and company, plus the submachine gun squad, machine gun sections, anti-tank rifle squad, and infantry guns."

Also, I believe it was in Chris Bellamy's phenomenal Absolute War there is a section where he talks about the late war situation facing the Germans. I recall that on a few hundred meter wide front, across the entire line of advance, the Russians had some 2-3 tanks, a company of infantry and several IGs.  I read it, contemplated what that meant for the very few Germans defending huge sectors, and gulped.

As for human wave tactics, those were desperate improvisations from the early war in which men with no military training were rushed to the front en masse , handed a rifle and a handful of cartridges, then sent straight into battle. Later arrivals got no rifles and were instructed to arm themselves with those from the fallen

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited July 6, 2016 by John Kettler

[RAM-bo4250]

Sorry kevinkin and John Kettler for not responding right away. Real life gets in the way sometimes. Thanks for these suggestions as well and I will certainly look in to them. Thank all you guys for your help. I have started reading  FM 100-2-1 and its a great read although dry due to being a field manual and all. Thats definitely OK when you're looking for real infromation. I am definitely starting to figure out soviet doctrine a little and is helping me.

Ron

[John Kettler]

RAM-bo4250,

Happy to help, and your response time is a nonissue. Believe you will find this of real interest. This is one of several volumes on WWII German experiences in the East. It is is something of a classic in its own right.

http://www.allworldwars.com/Small-Unit-Actions-During-German-Campaign-in-Russia.html

There's also this very low level tactical material.

http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.com/2013/04/soviet-squad-tactics-in-wwii-of-guides.html

You may also enjoy this video. Though it's primarily about the SVT-40, it gets into other good stuff, too. Low level troop formations and how they changed.

But here's the real find--the English translation of what I believe are the 1942 Combat Regulations for the Infantry. There are three parts. This is Part 1. The other two are in the sidebar.

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll8/id/2472

George MC,

Regret to inform you your DB Russian tactics compilation link now shows Error 404. Color me disappointed!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited August 12, 2016 by John Kettler