Was Panzerschreck accuracy boosted recently?

[Bulletpoint]

Just playing through the Scottish Corridor campaign, and starting to notice my armour is getting killed at very long range by Panzerschrecks.

Before, I used to feel quite safe at 160m+ distance, because the schreck teams would fire their ammo, but it would be extremely rare that they hit anything. But in this mission, my armour gets hit and knocked out at long range. It happened once at 170m, once at 190m and once at 199m (maximum range!). It's the second or third shot that hits.

I ceased fire to check the experience of the firing team that hit at 190m. They were green! But with very high motivation. So, does motivation = accuracy, or was the Panzerschreck accuracy boosted recently?

Please note this post is not to complain about getting hit, I'm just curious what's going on here

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint,

First, may I suggest you go back while you can and change your title so it reads "Panzerschrecks" instead of "Panzerfausts" as written? It's confusing to come in expecting one AT weapon and finding it's something else.

I own the complete CMBN but haven't played any campaigns. Still, I may be able to help. Here goes. You said you are getting hit at extreme range (actually extreme effective range since, like the bazooka and the PIAT, the projectile can be fired much further than listed). Understandably, that's distressing to you. But understand that what the Panzerschreck firer is doing is functionally no different than what a tank does. It fires, observes whether hit or miss and in which way, then fires again. Rinse. Repeat. This continues until the target is hit effectively or the TC breaks off. The Panzerschreck guy is doing the same thing, and he is refining his aim with every shot. The game handles this by increasing the hit probability from shot to shot. Another factor potentially affecting what you're seeing is whether or not the shooter is in command and by whom. Since you provided no such info, I can only speculate, but good leaders enhance troop performance--including gunnery accuracy! Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler 

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Bulletpoint,

First, may I suggest you go back while you can and change your title so it reads "Panzerschrecks" instead of "Panzerfausts" as written? It's confusing to come in expecting one AT weapon and finding it's something else.

I own the complete CMBN but haven't played any campaigns. Still, I may be able to help. Here goes. You said you are getting hit at extreme range (actually extreme effective range since, like the bazooka and the PIAT, the projectile can be fired much further than listed). Understandably, that's distressing to you. But understand that what the Panzerschreck firer is doing is functionally no different than what a tank does. It fires, observes whether hit or miss and in which way, then fires again. Rinse. Repeat. This continues until the target is hit effectively or the TC breaks off. The Panzerschreck guy is doing the same thing, and he is refining his aim with every shot. The game handles this by increasing the hit probability from shot to shot. Another factor potentially affecting what you're seeing is whether or not the shooter is in command and by whom. Since you provided no such info, I can only speculate, but good leaders enhance troop performance--including gunnery accuracy! Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler 

Thanks for the reply, sorry about the confusion - I corrected the title now.

You're right to point out that aim should increase from shot to shot, I just think I remember that I used to park my tanks with impunity at that kind of range, since it would take a lot of shots to get a hit. And more often than not, my tank would spot the offending schreck team and fire back..

Now, it seems quite few shots are needed to get a hit. I'm just puzzled if I'm remembering wrong, or schreck accuracy was boosted, or if the motivation factor somehow gives a big accuracy boost... Because it's the first time I play against very high motivation enemies.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Depends on the skills of the unit, veteran panzerschreck is much more accurate than a green one. In that campaign you are fighting the Waffen SS, those guys tend to be more skilled in-game than there Wehrmacht counterparts.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Raptorx7 said:

Depends on the skills of the unit, veteran panzerschreck is much more accurate than a green one. In that campaign you are fighting the Waffen SS, those guys tend to be more skilled in-game than there Wehrmacht counterparts.

That's what I thought until I ceased fire and checked the team doing the shooting - they were 'green'. The briefing says they are hitler youth and poorly trained. Which puzzled me even more when I saw their schreck skills.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Looks like you just got unlucky, it happens.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Raptorx7 said:

Looks like you just got unlucky, it happens.

Yeah, it sure does. The last kill was at 199m range and it only hit the armoured car's fender, but somehow killed all on board, despite the fender being a paper thin plate far removed from the body of the vehicle.... rotten luck.

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint,

The computer ate my post, but I'll try again. Raptorx7 is right. The explanation could be as simple as the computer "rolled" hot when it fired on you. But you still haven't told us whether or not these guys were freelancing or under an officer's control. If yes, what quality rating? I'm also puzzled by the fact that nowhere do you mention counterfire on the launcher position. Or did you shoot back but the Panzerschreck "gunner" stuck resolutely to his combat task?

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

If schreck's max effective range is around 300m(?) then 150m is half that. That's like a Bazooka with 160m(?) max range firing at 80m. I've seen schrecks firing near max range going VERY far off course, like absurdly off-target. I don't think the calculations for round dispersion is linear, the rounds seem to be pretty accurate until the range they aren't. Might have something to do with the firer having to eyeball range correctly, which is also affected by skill level.

Edited April 25, 2016 by MikeyD

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Just playing through the Scottish Corridor campaign, and starting to notice my armour is getting killed at very long range by Panzerschrecks.

Before, I used to feel quite safe at 160m+ distance, because the schreck teams would fire their ammo, but it would be extremely rare that they hit anything. But in this mission, my armour gets hit and knocked out at long range. It happened once at 170m, once at 190m and once at 199m (maximum range!). It's the second or third shot that hits.

I ceased fire to check the experience of the firing team that hit at 190m. They were green! But with very high motivation. So, does motivation = accuracy, or was the Panzerschreck accuracy boosted recently?

Please note this post is not to complain about getting hit, I'm just curious what's going on here

 

In my experience the panzershreck is reliable to around 120 meters.  To get hit three times, in a short time span, at 170 meter plus range, by a green team is very unusual.  If it is bad luck it is really bad luck.  I feel your pain.  I think higher motivation just makes the team more likely to stick to their task.  Experience and leadership play a role in accuracy. These guys were green so ....................  I think that's why @John Kettler is curious about the leadership.  I am not convinced that the leadership alone would account for these results............ but as long as we are looking at it what was the leadership within the AT team itself in addition to the next higher up C2 leadership? (If the team was in C2).    

[John Kettler]

MOS:96B2P

I never said a leader alone accounted for the outcomes, presuming there actually was command involved. Rather, I essentially said that if there was a leader, his presence might've helped the Green Panzerschreck team perform better than would otherwise have been the case.

 MikeyD,

Bazooka accuracy was so poor that Patton issued a direct order that bazookas not be fired past 60 yards. Believe that's in Rottman's very good bazooka book.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

[user1000]

Were they watching the tank for a long time? For some reason  have noticed both mine and enemy AT shot percentages go way up if they watch the vehicle for a long time.

[Vanir Ausf B]

No adjustment that I am aware of. I'd actually be in favor of one. The first shot accuracy of these weapon types in-game seems to assume the shooter has no idea what the range is when in fact they did have rudimentary range finders on the launchers.

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, user1000 said:

Were they watching the tank for a long time? For some reason  have noticed both mine and enemy AT shot percentages go way up if they watch the vehicle for a long time.

I don't know really.. I assume they might have been watching it for quite some time, since I had it sitting a bit out of range before moving closer. Difficult to say if they had LOS due to reverse slope and tall vegetation.

But would be interesting if what you say is correct.

[StieliAlpha]

I have to second Bulletpoint in a way: Three hits at ranges over 170m are strange. Under all circumstances.

But then: I consider 100m as the maximum reasonable range. And all too often, my guys seem to hit nothing at that range.

I don't buy the "targeting" argument. With just 6 shots and such a slow rate of fire, there is not much of a targeting benefit.

[Bulletpoint]

News: We're up to 4 hits now. The same GREEN squad killed another armoured car at 200m range, FIRST shot. I tried to give an order to move just within range, then immediately reverse to get out of danger, but the vehicle had no time before it was hit. I now won the mission and went to re-check:

The enemy squad was:

Waffen SS, Green experience, no soft modifiers apart from +1 motivation.

(this squad accounted for two of the hits, the other two were in aborted attempts on the mission)

It was in C2 with:

II.Zug HQ, Waffen SS, +1 leadership, Veteran, +2 Motivation.

 

I also checked to se if the enemy had any Target Reference Points (because they can work as ambush zones, increasing accuracy of units firing into them) but there were none.

 

The mission is: Scottish Corridor - Mondrainville.

I know this is still a too small statistical sample to say anything definite, but I'm getting the feeling there's something at work here that I don't understand. Either Waffen SS get a huge accuracy bonus just for being SS, even if they are green, or I'm just extremely unlucky, or I don't know... I should do some testing on this.

[womble]

I'm pretty sure there are no "organisation-specific" accuracy bonuses (not that I think you were really thinking there are). Rangers, Waffen SS, Airborne, their Typical soft factors may be higher, but a Green, High, 0 element of any arm uses its weapons with the same "dice rolls" and modifiers whether they're Kriegsmarine or FJ or Ranger or 2Para.

[Bulletpoint]

20 minutes ago, womble said:

I'm pretty sure there are no "organisation-specific" accuracy bonuses (not that I think you were really thinking there are). Rangers, Waffen SS, Airborne, their Typical soft factors may be higher, but a Green, High, 0 element of any arm uses its weapons with the same "dice rolls" and modifiers whether they're Kriegsmarine or FJ or Ranger or 2Para.

Well I didn't think there would be any organisation specific bonuses, but one can never be sure I guess..

I wonder if being within close C2 of a veteran HQ makes subordinate units act like veterans themselves? Because the shooting skills I saw in that mission was what I would expect of veteran troops - at least. Or the luckiest bastards I ever saw.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

<Snip> The enemy squad was:  Green experience, no soft modifiers apart from +1 motivation.

It was in C2 with: II.Zug HQ, Waffen SS, +1 leadership, Veteran, +2 Motivation.

I also checked to se if the enemy had any Target Reference Points (because they can work as ambush zones, increasing accuracy of units firing into them) but there were none.  <Snip>

I should do some testing on this.

I don't see anything that stands out as an obvious reason for IMO the unusual behavior.  

The TRP was an excellent thought but yet .......... they had none .  

@womble was through here and didn't point out anything that was missed ............. paging @IanL ................. maybe Ian will notice something about this one ......

The testing is probably a good idea.  If you do run some test please post the results.     

Edited April 25, 2016 by MOS:96B2P

[Bulletpoint]

5 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I don't see anything that stands out as an obvious reason for IMO the unusual behavior.  The TRP was an excellent thought but yet .......... they had none .  

@womble was through here and didn't point out anything that was missed ............. paging @IanL ................. maybe Ian will notice something about this one ......

The testing is probably a good idea.  If you do run some test please post the results.     

Yeah I'm not crying foul or anything at this point, just want to be clear on that.

But I'm puzzled because when I play the Germans and have a Panzerfaust, my rule of thumb is that 150m is MAX range for a Regular team. Beyond that, I find they simply miss so much that they need too much time to hit (and a panzerfaust team doesn't usually have a lot of time to work before they need to run away, especially against a human opponent). Also, even if they eventually manage to hit, I find they use too much ammo at that range.

If my team is Green, my rule of thumb is max range = 100m. And for Veterans, it would be around 180m, but preferably less.

Additional info: the PF team was integrated into a full squad, not working as a split off team. Also, they had been under continuous Bren Gun fire for at least 5 minutes from another armoured car (apprx 400m distance). This suppression was not enough to make them cover, but it's supposed to be bad for accuracy. I guess being very close to the good HQ made them simply shrug off that incoming fire.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[A Canadian Cat]

I've been reading and I have nothing to say other than wow I wish I was @Bulletpoint's opponent   Yeah helpful right.  The good news is he will be out of ammo soon - got any more armoured cars he can wreck?  Send them up and then your tanks will be safe.

OK being more serious I am certain that nothing was changed in the patch, at least on purpose.  I am also 100% certain that the only thing that matters is the skill of the solider not the branch or country.  I have not played enough 3.12 to really be definitive - the two games I have just finished (mirror) my Shrek teams came up totally empty and as did my opponents.  So, something like 6 shots no hits (but at least four different teams).  Never at anything over 150m most much less than that.  At this point I would say lucky shrek team bring up an MG and put them down using something with less armour as a target.

The one thing will say that is my impression and not tested is that if feels like a team can get on a roll and keep coming up with hit after hit or they can get on string of bad luck and miss over and over and over.  I sometimes break contact with a shrek team and bring them back latter in an attempt to break their bad luck cycle.  Like I said more gamblers superstition than anything verifiable.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, IanL said:

I've been reading and I have nothing to say other than wow I wish I was @Bulletpoint's opponent   Yeah helpful right.  The good news is he will be out of ammo soon - got any more armoured cars he can wreck?  Send them up and then your tanks will be safe.

Tanks? This is the British Army lad. Those armoured cars are all we got  

Also, he seemed to have massive ammounts of rockets for that stove pipe, happily firing them off against infantry after he wrecked the cars. For some weird reason his accuracy was rubbish against infantry targets though...

5 minutes ago, IanL said:

The one thing will say that is my impression and not tested is that if feels like a team can get on a roll and keep coming up with hit after hit or they can get on string of bad luck and miss over and over and over.  I sometimes break contact with a shrek team and bring them back latter in an attempt to break their bad luck cycle.  Like I said more gamblers superstition than anything verifiable.

Now that's an interesting theory

[Bulletpoint]

Actually I have another theory, maybe a bit far out but here goes:

I heard from BattleFront that even in a regular 0-motivation squad, some soldiers may randomly be fanatics. This goes a long way to explain some weird cases where enemy teams were seemingly impossible to suppress.

Maybe squad experience works the same way? That even though the squad as a whole is rated "green", one guy (in this example, the guy with the rocket launcher), might be veteran, or even elite?

[A Canadian Cat]

There are variations between individual soldiers for sure. No one has much if an idea of the details though.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I just did a quick test in Red Thunder v1.03.

10 panzerschreck teams shooting at 10 T-34/85s at about 195 meters. I ran the test only one time.

First shot hits: 3

Second shot hits: 4

Third shot hits: 1

Fourth shot hits: 1

The last schreck fired all 6 rounds without hitting.