More small arms variety

[Ts4EVER]

Hi,

this is more of a "long term" request/suggestion and it applies to all WW2 titles, although I post it in here, since it is the latest installment.

CM has a huge variety in different vehicles, with different production versions, often with their own skins as well. Personally, I am more of an infantry guy, so I would like to see some more variety there, especially for the Germans, who devolved into a very rag-tag outfit, starting in 1943. Now you might argue that on the level of CM some of the weapons I am proposing will have no appreciable gameplay impact and that maybe the resources would be better spent elsewhere. You would not be wrong about this, necessarily, but on the other hand one could also say that the difference between a Sherman M4 and M4A1 on the actual battlefield is not that decisive. However, in my opinion for a realistic and detailed game like this, the added variety is its own reward.

So here are my suggestions. Note that these are not exotic prototype or "tacticool" silenced weapons, but actual weapons in use on the frontline. I also left out pistols.

Machine guns:

The MG26(t) (ZB26)

This Czech progenitor of the Bren gun was common in German use right until the end of the war. In the beginning it equipped (alongside other Czech arms) certain SS troops, but the weapon was also adopted by the army as a substitute standard weapon. If you look at the monthly status reports of Infantry divisions, you will often find several of them in the roster, presumably to be held in reserve. In my opinion these could be used to replace some MG34s/42s for infantry units when the equipment status is set to below average.

Luftwaffe MGs: MG15 and MG81

These were obsolete board weapons converted to ground use. Mostly associated with Luftwaffe field divisions, but also Volkssturm units. In the last months of the war, with automatic weapon shortages in mind, these were becoming more common, even in the normal armed forces. Note that the MG81 actually had a faster rate of fire than an MG42.

Vickers K

Same story: this extremely fast firing mg was used in place of Vickers Tripods by Royal Marine Commandos and other special forces in Normandy and probably later as well (maybe something for a Rhine river themed expansion pack?)

Johnson LMG

This was famously used in place of BARs by the First Special Service Force (US/Canadian) in Italy, 1944. Might already be planned for one of the announced packs, but I thought I'd mention it.

Rifles:

K98k ZF41

Presently, the icon of the scoped K98k seems to show a 4x or 6x scope:

However, the ingame model is of the more common 1,5x ZF41:

This flaw could be made into an advantage by having both types ingame, with the small scope used as a (in modern terms) "DMR" embedded in squads, and the larger scope issued to specialized sniper teams.

Gewehr 41 (W)

This was the original German semi automatic rifle. As I mentioned in passing earlier, I have been reading a lot of German monthly status reports, many of which have been compiled (in German) over at the Lexikon der Wehrmacht forum. From these I have concluded that the G43 rifle is severely overrepresented in every game except Final Blitzkrieg. You will be hard pressed to find many of these in mid 1944 or earlier. In fact, to me it seems that during the battle of Normandy, the G41 was still more common than the G43. Only by autumn 1944 do they suddenly appear in considerable numbers. Because of this, from a historical perspective, I would replace the G43s in the Italy games completely with this earlier type and also have it in use alongside it in Normandy still. For instance, the 352nd infantry division (of Omaha Beach fame) reported 395 of them in their inventory in February 1944, but no G43s. (For scale, they reported 591 MP40s).

Submachineguns:

Beretta MPs

I was very happy to see the Beretta M38 in German hands in Gustav Line:

Note that this weapon was also used outside of Italy. Fallschirmjägers in Normandy, who had been involved in disarming the Royal Italian Army, still fielded them and there are also pictures of Luftwaffe Feld Division forces in France with this weapon. In fact, I know more pictures of Berettas in Normandy than of G43s or MP43s!

In addition to this, the Germans kept the follow up version of this weapon in production in Northern Italy and issued it to their own troops as a substitute standard:

With MP40 production scaled back in favour of the StG44, these weapons became increasingly common near the end of 1944. In fact, I saw one in the museum at Malmedy and another one in bad condition (found rusted in the mud) in the Vossenack museum. I wouldn't be surprised if these especially turned up as StG44 substitutes in Volksgrenadier divisions. the famed German author Günther Grass also recalls being issued one in 1945, when he was part of an SS division on the Eastern front.

Sten MKIII

This weapon could be used alongside the Sten MKII, since it was very common. Especially towards the end of the war they appear in pictures a lot.

Anyway, those would be my suggestions. Maybe it's unrealistic to expect this, but in that case at least I hope some of you might find the thread interesting.

 

[CHEqTRO]

A very interesting read  I agree with you with the need of adding more weapons to CMx2, it feels a bit uncomplete the amount of infantry weapons in the game (Still a good quantity IMO)

Furthermore, if they keep going to the end of the war, weapons as the M2 Carbine and all the volkssturm ones (VK 1.5, VG1/2, MP3008...) are imperative.

Maybe,with a bit of luck,we will get to see all these weapons in CM

[cool breeze]

+1  Great post!!!

[MikeyD]

Vickers K is in CMBN already, though I think its specific to a vehicle (Brit Airborne recce squadron, Holland?). Its very pretty, in an ugly kind'a way. I've been having fun these days skinning new infantry weapons for an *upcoming module* (wink). Today I just turned in art for a new inf weapon for a *patch* (wink).

Edited April 14, 2016 by MikeyD

[Childress]

Not considered 'small arms' but the game might reflect that Allied troops often ditched their PIATs and Bazookas for captured Panzerfausts. Apparently it was rather common.

[Ts4EVER]

Well, since the post seems to have been well received, I though I'd do a small "Italian special" (in light of the upcoming FI latewar module). Late war RSI forces were surprisingly heavy in submachineguns (in part because they were involved mainly in anti-partisan operations). Most of these were the late model Beretta M38/42 I already posted, but two other smgs are also worth mentioning.

FNAB-43

This very high quality smg was produced in limited, but not insignificant, numbers in 1943 and 1944 and issued to RSI and German units. Compared to the more common Berettas, it appears to have been given to more "elite" units, like Decima Mas or the San Marco marine division. The magazine could be pivoted forwards for a more compact weapon.

TZ-45

This weapon was introduced near the end of 1944 and was a lot cheaper to produce than earlier models. It seems to have been used in anti-partisan operations, but also issued to standard infantry.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Ts4EVER

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Think if we see a Gotterdammerung module with Volkstrum most of the German stuff you posted is likely.  Johnston LMG or rifle seems a bit less likely simply because of the limited circulation (both were virtually unknown outside of the FSSF and very limited USMC issue).  

[Ts4EVER]

On 15.4.2016 at 7:30 PM, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Think if we see a Gotterdammerung module with Volkstrum most of the German stuff you posted is likely.  Johnston LMG or rifle seems a bit less likely simply because of the limited circulation (both were virtually unknown outside of the FSSF and very limited USMC issue).  

True, but note that in the FI christmas bone thread, he mentions some kind of Italian "special forces" expansion being planned. In that case it would be a very likely inclusion.

[Erwin]

Re the rag-tag look, a related issue is that all the squads of a CM2 platoon are identical to each other in terms of weapons and ammo load-outs.  It seemed more believable in CMSF, but not from what I read re WW2 era.  CM1 did a much better job featuring the rag-tag assortment of weapons etc found in WW2 squads of the same platoon.  It's one of those odd retrograde steps of CM2.

[Ts4EVER]

Actually, at least for the Germans, usually the opposite is the case. Lots of randomization in terms of how many Fausts they have, as well as if and/or how many G43s, StG44s show up.

[Erwin]

I agree the "rag tag" is better in CMFB.  However, AFAIK AFV and IFV loadouts are still identical.  In the previous CM2 titles all units were very cookie cutter.  CM1 seemed more random in the way units were armed and supplied.

[Big Boss]

Great post. I would also love to see the Czechoslovak machine gun ZB-54 which in German hands were known as MG 37(t).

[A Canadian Cat]

20 hours ago, Erwin said:

Re the rag-tag look, a related issue is that all the squads of a CM2 platoon are identical to each other in terms of weapons and ammo load-outs.  It seemed more believable in CMSF, but not from what I read re WW2 era.  CM1 did a much better job featuring the rag-tag assortment of weapons etc found in WW2 squads of the same platoon.  It's one of those odd retrograde steps of CM2.

Either I missed something in CM1 or you are miss-remembering.  As I recall the squads in CM1 were represented by the three stooges (with all the respect deserved :-) ) there was no rag tag look, no representation of specific weapons nor even ammo for that matter.

[niall78]

17 minutes ago, IanL said:

Either I missed something in CM1 or you are miss-remembering.  As I recall the squads in CM1 were represented by the three stooges (with all the respect deserved :-) ) there was no rag tag look, no representation of specific weapons nor even ammo for that matter.

There was a panel on the bottom right-hand side of the screen that gave the weapon load out of the selected squad. Not that it really mattered as firing was abstracted in any case. CMx2 is many levels more detailed than CMx1. Harking back to a few weapon pictures that were abstracted isn't really telling the full story.

[A Canadian Cat]

Ah, there ya go.  I never paid much attention to that since as you said it didn't really matter much.

 

2 minutes ago, niall78 said:

Harking back to a few weapon pictures that were abstracted isn't really telling the full story.

Indeed.

[user1000]

Those photos are old... Germans used most of the czech stuff at the early stages of ww2. Invasion of France / Poland etc.. Ostruppen used it in Normandy for like 2 weeks, Germans used it at beginning of Barbarossa.. They used their own stuff mostly during ww2 not these guns..

Edited April 26, 2016 by user1000

[Pak40]

23 hours ago, Erwin said:

a related issue is that all the squads of a CM2 platoon are identical to each other in terms of weapons and ammo load-outs. 

I don't think this is 100% true. I definitely remember different weapons in some squads, specifically US Airborne in CMBN Arnhem. Extra BAR or different configurations of carbines and thompsons, etc. I'm sure the German squads were similar but I'll have to check when I get home.

[Pak40]

21 hours ago, Erwin said:

I agree the "rag tag" is better in CMFB.  However, AFAIK AFV and IFV loadouts are still identical.  In the previous CM2 titles all units were very cookie cutter.  CM1 seemed more random in the way units were armed and supplied.

OK, so I've definitely confirmed that there slight variations in the squads weapon load out. For example, US Airborne squads in September generally have 2  BARs per squad but some only have 1 BAR. Same seems true for US regular infantry, although maybe not so many have 2 BARs. The obvious variation is some squads have 1 bazooka and two others don't. US airborne seem to have the same number of Thompsons and carbines(two each per squad).

Germans regulars PG in June 44 have variations as well. Some squads have a STG44 and others don't.

[Big Boss]

12 hours ago, user1000 said:

Those photos are old...

Indeed, about 70 years:) but otherwise incorrect. The production of the MG 37(t) ended in 1942 but saw limited service in the Wehrmacht till the end of the war, mostly by Waffen SS and anti-partisan units. This post was about a wish/ long term request of adding more unusual weapons to CM. If the weapons shown was not usually seen in photos/footage it still doesn't mean the weren't used. And a wish is just a wish.

[Ts4EVER]

This is not only an early war phenomenon. I will post excerpts from monthly weapon reports as examples. Note that MG34s or 42s do not show up in this, since they are listed in a different part of the document. It is divided in Deutsche Waffen (German weapons) and Beutewaffen (Captured weapons). Sometimes they only list mortars and MGs under captured weapons. The brackets designate the country of origin, so a "leichtes Maschinengewehr (n)" is a norwegian light machine gun (Madsen?). (t) means Czech, (h) Holland, (r) Russian, (j) Yugoslavian etc.

210. Infanterie-Division (01.05.1944)

Deutsche Waffen

5.149 x Karabiner
218 x Gewehrgranatgeräte
183 x Pistolen
425 x Maschinenpistolen

Beutewaffen (nur Gr.W. , M.G.)

15 x leichte Maschinengewehre (n)
25 x leichte Maschinengewehre (t)
6 x leichte Maschinengewehre (h)
9 x leichte Maschinengewehre (f)
6 x leichte Maschinengewehre (d)
25 x schwere Maschinengewehre (n)
3 x schwere Maschinengewehre (p)
30 x mittlere Granatwerfer (f)
48 x leichte Granatwerfer (f)

 

122. Infanterie-Division (01.04.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in der Kriegsgliederung nicht enthaltene deutsche Waffen)

1.103 x Pistolen 08
430 x Maschinenpistolen 38/40
613 x Maschinenpistolen 43/1
7.836 x Karabiner 98K
71 x Karabiner 98 mit Zielfernrohr
108 x Gewehre 41
237 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
63 x Raketen-Panzerbüchsen 54
70 x Maschinengewehr 15

II. Beutewaffen

54 x leichtes Maschinengewehr (r)
10 x leichtes Maschinengewehr (p)
1 x leichtes Maschinengewehr (t)
14 x Gewehre (r)
14 x Gewehre (t)
17 x Maschinenpistolen (r)

 

343. Infanterie-Division (01.05.1944) (Note: stationed in Britanny, so within the scope of CM:BN)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in der Kriegsgliederung nicht enthaltene deutsche Waffen)

6.242 x Karabiner 98K
66 x Gewehre 98
9 x Gewehre 98a
65 x Gewehre 41
130 x Karabiner 98 mit Zielfernrohr
528 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
725 x Maschinenpistolen
1.959 x Pistolen 08/38
1.060 x Pistolen 7,65mm

II. Beutewaffen
(nur Granatwerfer, Maschinengewehre und Gewehre)

754 x Gewehre (j)
311 x Gewehre (f)
815 x Gewehre (r)
710 x Gewehre 24(t)
41 x selbstladende Gewehre (r)
10 x Karabiner 454 (r)
27 x Pistolen (r)
29 x Maschinenpistolen (r)

256. Infanteriedivision (01.06.1944) (Note: Destroyed one month later at Vitebsk, so in scope of CM:RT.)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

7.106 x Karabiner
81 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
162 x Gewehr 41
360 x Gewehr-Granat-Gerät
702 x Maschinenpistolen (davon 38 = MPi 43)
1.679 x Pistolen
65 x Panzerschreck
1 x Nebelwerfer 35
21 x leichte Maschinengewehre 08/15
8 x leichte Maschinengewehr 13
2 x leichte Maschinengewehr 15
1 x schwere Maschinengewehre 08

(zur Instandsetzung und Waffenreserve)
11 x leichte Maschinengewehre
6 x schwere Maschinengewehre
7 x mittlere Granatwerfer
1 x 7,62cm Feldkanone 288 (r)

II. Beutewaffen

499 x Gewehre (r)
83 x leichte Maschinengewehre (r)
3 x schwere Maschinengewehre (r)
50 x leichte Maschinengewehre (f)
19 x leichte Maschinengewehre (t)
1 x leichtes Maschinengewehre (e)
1 x leichter Granatwerfer (r)
3 x mittlere Granatwerfer (r)
9 x mittlere Granatwerfer (f)
9 x 4,5cm Pak (r)

Note how the G43 does not show up in these yet (mid 1944). It only arrives in force in later months, until then mostly the G41 seems to have been in use.

363. Volksgrenadier-Division (01.12.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen

6.196 x Karabiner
25 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
481 x Gewehre 43
313 x Gewehrgranat-Gerät
910 x Maschinenpistole 44
138 x Maschinenpistole 38/40
13 x Maschinenpistolen (i)
1.538 x Pistolen 08/38

Note that the Beretta (Maschinenpistole (i)) is listed under "German weapons" here, since they kept them officially in production for their own forces.

Anyway, hope I didn't bore anyone to death with it... personally I find it interesting, but then again, I am German, so maybe bureaucracy is in my blood.

 

[Anthony P.]

To what extent can it be confirmed that these weapons were actually issued, and to front line troops? They are after all in a very small minority, imagine the pains in providing ammunition and spare parts for them all the way to the front. Can it be verified that any particular number of these made it all the way to the front, instead of just being issued to rear echelon troops who were unlikely to use them much anyway, or just gathered dust in a supply depot just in case they'd one day be needed?

[Ts4EVER]

These are divisional status report, so they were in the hands of that division. The reason they report having them is in part to get ammunition. That being said, I expect that many of them were left in reserve, but considering the desperate situation, I'm sure they were used. One example: You know how the ammunition teams of AT guns in CM have MGs? Wouldn't be surprised if this was one area were captured weapons were issued if German MGs were scarce. So if the AT gun was in danger of being overrun, they would have been used to defend it.

 

edit: also note that many of the captured rifles were Mauser knock offs and that 8mm Mauser was a very common cartridge in pre-war Europe. The MG26(t) for example could use the same ammo as normal MG34s or MG42s.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Ts4EVER

[Placebo]

+1 from me, interesting post.

[Anthony P.]

Yeah, I don't doubt your source about the divisions keeping them in stock. What I'm looking for is clarification as to which degree it can be confirmed that these captured weapons were issued in any noteworthy amount to front line units, and not just handed off to cooks, mechanics, etc. in the rear along with "here you go. It's not a 'proper' weapon, but if you ever have to use it odds are you won't live for more than 5 minutes anyway".

[Big Boss]

Antony P; Durning Bagration I would imagine that quite a few rear echelon personal in German divisions had to fight for their life as well as men on the HKL. That's why its interesting with the idea with "unusual" firearms in say straggler groups and LW troops etc, even if I don't think that captured weapons was quite as rare on the front line as you would suggest.