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Kampfgruppe Peiper Campaign


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What's with the infantry pathfinding around the tightly spaced buildings approaching Stavelot Square? I'm talking about the group of three and four story ones with a walled courtyard in the middle. My troops are given an order to enter a neighbouring building with an obvious door on the outside yet run around the entire block to try and enter from the other side getting wiped out in the process. Are these doors painted on or something?

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On 12/04/2016 at 4:58 AM, ChrisND said:

I am curious to hear how people find the Stoumont mission depending on whether they attack in pre-dawn fog at the historical time or in the middle of the previous day.

SPOILERS below!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I attacked previous day (no rest)...was a good fight but ended up a total German victory.  Awesome map. I went for attacks on both flanks and avoided middle attack all together.  Had quite a few tanks bog down and get immobilised but nothing that affected my attack too much.  Sent several platoons of infantry and tanks up through the wood trails to take the high ground.  Was pretty important as my Panthers had excellent LOS to pick of enemy tanks in the town from the wooded high ground.  Those M36 (stand in 90mm ATGs) were quite deadly despite me having spotted them early on from the hills.  Faster than expected reaction/turret rotation speeds etc.

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On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:58 AM, ChrisND said:

I am curious to hear how people find the Stoumont mission depending on whether they attack in pre-dawn fog at the historical time or in the middle of the previous day.

***SPOILER Alert****

 

Well I am playing dual campaigns, and I am a little baffled with the Stoumont decisions.  I thought if I would not rest I could find Stoumont not heavily defended.  Instead they had the chance to put up mines and such.. no problem.. but damn... the Fuel Depot is guarded by a reinforced company that looks sort of well metagamed so that the Germans would stand no chance of taking everything?  Which makes choosing Speed over resting sort of Stupid.  There are actually more enemies if you choose Speed, vs waiting the night like Peiper did, so I am a little confused in that regard.. Speed decision, you encounter more Allied Troops, Fuel Depot is nearly (Wont say impossible) a nightmare to achieve.  Rest and Refit Decision, Less Allied troops initially but you will encounter different Allied Assets..  Anyways going after the Fuel Depot would be suicide... you men would get torn apart,  You would think that they would have defended the ONE BRIDGE better with the assets in Stoumont, but no.... they would rather hang out at the Fuel Depot.  Just my 2 cents.. just thinking that SPEED is a bad choice and the designers almost want you to either do exactly what Peiper did, or just Fail, as I did not see any clear way of even getting to the Fuel depot a possibility with the assets you have.

 

FYI:  As far as Pathfinding went.. especially before you get to the bridge, there are some buildings that your infantry just will not enter properly and they will get killed as they seek to find the correct door.. even though its right in front of their face.  My guess is this has something to do with the building and ground elevation.  Another thing not to do, is destroy a vehicle on the bridge... as your vehicles will have a extremely difficult and painstakingly time getting across the bridge.  Still a very beautiful map... well done.

Edited by GhostRider3/3
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Things went well for me until this mission. I've been forced to restart the campaign.

Spoiler below in white text. Highlight to read:

After choosing the rest option and the no-fuel option in Stavelot, I took my entire force around the right flank at Stoumont, in order to occupy the high ground and deal with as many allied AFVs as possible from range. I actually made it along the muddy track and through the woods with only two bogged vehicles. However, allied infantry in the woods and very accurate enemy mortar fire caused crippling losses to my infantry.

I feel that the allied opposition builds up too quickly. IIRC, Peiper had more problems with engineers blowing bridges under his nose and having to find new routes than with organized defenders at this early stage, but maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps the designers decide to skip the 'boring' minor events and focus on the larger engagements. I'd have liked to have a few recon platoon-sized 'race for the bridge in 10 minutes' scenarios early on though...

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I'm struggling at Stoumount - spoiler below in white text, highlight to read:

I've outflanked the whole village by running my Panthers with pioneers and some panzergrenadiers right around the right flank and come in from the rear. I'm alo attacking with a small kampfgruppe from the left flank. The whole places appears festooned with US infantry!

I'm going slow but now starting to run out of time and slowly running out of infantry. I took the speed approach but it appears I'm still facing a well prepared and extensive defence. I think this is where it'll end. Even if i do manage to take the town I'll have next to no infantry left I think.

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Well unfortunately I have been very disappointed with the Stoumont map, I had a good start and advanced quickly but as soon as my troops started crossing the bridge, they decided it was better to hide under the bridge and would not budge.  I am used to some pathfinding issues on bridges and my two panzers made slow progress but made it across, but hardly anything else did, effectively ending the battle for me.  Very frustrating!!

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SPOILER

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Puzzled: On the second mission I tried both the cease fire following capture of Lodomez and following a save, pushing forward to a major victory at Richard.  In both instances the briefing for the third mission read, "[H]aving rested overnight ..."    Is that right?

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1 hour ago, Placebo said:

Stoumont map, I had a good start and advanced quickly but as soon as my troops started crossing the bridge, they decided it was better to hide under the bridge and would not budge

@Placebo - Can you confirm whether you mean the Stavelot map as I can't recall a bridge needed to be crossed in Stoumont. Otherwise a screen shot of the offending bridge or location will be helpful.

P

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Was curious:  I know that if one loses mission #5 (Stoumont) the campaign ends.  But, does it matter in the first 4 missions whether one loses, draws, or even what scale of victory one achieves?  Because one is given so few infantry, and it is so easy to lose infantry, am wondering if it's better to aim for a draw (or maybe even a loss is fine), or a minor victory and not bother attempting anything better since achieving a higher victory level is usually costly in losses (which do not seem to be replaced), and I cannot see any benefit from a higher level of victory (or is there a benefit??).

Also noticed:

The arty in mission #5 (Stoumont) is missing one 105mm battery (according to the briefing).

Regarding resupply and replacements, the Stoumont briefing warns that there will be no further ammo resupply, and to conserve mortar ammo.  However, I didn't receive any 81mm or 120mm resupply after mission #4, so Stoumont starts with already low ammo for the mortars.  Is that a briefing error, or have I misunderstood the resupply issues? 

PS:  Re the Stavelot Bridge (or any bridge) issue, try always putting the max number of waypoints across a bridge plus MOVE or SLOW.  I put a platoon and a half of vehicles across that bridge with no problems.

 

Edited by Erwin
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7 hours ago, Erwin said:

Was curious:  I know that if one loses mission #5 (Stoumont) the campaign ends.  But, does it matter in the first 4 missions whether one loses, draws, or even what scale of victory one achieves?  Because one is given so few infantry, and it is so easy to lose infantry, am wondering if it's better to aim for a draw (or maybe even a loss is fine), or a minor victory and not bother attempting anything better since achieving a higher victory level is usually costly in losses (which do not seem to be replaced), and I cannot see any benefit from a higher level of victory (or is there a benefit??).

Also noticed:

The arty in mission #5 (Stoumont) is missing one 105mm battery (according to the briefing).

Regarding resupply and replacements, the Stoumont briefing warns that there will be no further ammo resupply, and to conserve mortar ammo.  However, I didn't receive any 81mm or 120mm resupply after mission #4, so Stoumont starts with already low ammo for the mortars.  Is that a briefing error, or have I misunderstood the resupply issues? 

PS:  Re the Stavelot Bridge (or any bridge) issue, try always putting the max number of waypoints across a bridge plus MOVE or SLOW.  I put a platoon and a half of vehicles across that bridge with no problems.

 

 

Am curious about this as well. I too began Stoumont with very low ammo left for my mortars, having used a lot in Stavelot. The idea of 'rationing' some of your arty for future missions, as the briefing suggests, is frankly pretty ludicrous -- you barely have enough arty support for Stoumont, much less subsequent actions.

Also -- is the ability to deploy mortars *in* the halftracks a new feature, or did I just never realize you could do this in previous CM games?

 

Overall the Kampfgruppe Peiper campaign is really excellent. Although a minor gripe about the Stavelot crossing. It is *very* easy for one of your vehicles to get disabled at the entrance to the bridge or on the bridge, especially with the propensity for 'bogging down' in shelled terrain. If this happens near the beginning or even the middle of the mission, you've effectively already lost. There's no way to clear the obstruction, and so no way to proceed with taking your objectives. I admit I resorted to a bit of 'save scumming' in order to get through this mission precisely because of this, which is essentially a design flaw in the scenario if you ask me.

 

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30 minutes ago, sandman2575 said:

 

Am curious about this as well. I too began Stoumont with very low ammo left for my mortars, having used a lot in Stavelot. The idea of 'rationing' some of your arty for future missions, as the briefing suggests, is frankly pretty ludicrous -- you barely have enough arty support for Stoumont, much less subsequent actions.

Also -- is the ability to deploy mortars *in* the halftracks a new feature, or did I just never realize you could do this in previous CM games?

 

Overall the Kampfgruppe Peiper campaign is really excellent. Although a minor gripe about the Stavelot crossing. It is *very* easy for one of your vehicles to get disabled at the entrance to the bridge or on the bridge, especially with the propensity for 'bogging down' in shelled terrain. If this happens near the beginning or even the middle of the mission, you've effectively already lost. There's no way to clear the obstruction, and so no way to proceed with taking your objectives. I admit I resorted to a bit of 'save scumming' in order to get through this mission precisely because of this, which is essentially a design flaw in the scenario if you ask me.

 

That is not a flaw in the scenario, it isn't the designers fault if your tank gets knocked out on the bridge.

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Given that the game gives you no way to recover from an immobilized vehicle at the crucial juncture of the bridge -- and that crossing the bridge is something you need to accomplish very much nearer the beginning of the 1.5 hour scenario than later, and with more than just a handful of AFVs and halftracks -- I'd say it's a flaw, especially since the scenario makes the likelihood of immoblization high, between the (SPOILER) several intense arty strikes in the bridge vicinity and ease with which vehicles get bogged in the craters. If the bridge gets blocked, there's little you can do besides throw up your hands and say, "well, now there's no way I can take the objectives. That was a fun campaign, I guess..."

I resorted more than once to re-loading saves because of immobilized vehicles. It got to the point that I was saving *every* turn in order not to have the entire campaign come to an premature and highly anticlimactic conclusion -- generally something I don't like to do. It is a game, after all, and to the extent that the game throws up barriers to being able to complete the game, over which one has no control -- I'd say that's not great design.

 

Regardless, like I say, I think the KP campaign is overall terrific, as is Final Blitzkrieg in general.

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1 hour ago, sandman2575 said:

Given that the game gives you no way to recover from an immobilized vehicle at the crucial juncture of the bridge -- and that crossing the bridge is something you need to accomplish very much nearer the beginning of the 1.5 hour scenario than later, and with more than just a handful of AFVs and halftracks -- I'd say it's a flaw, especially since the scenario makes the likelihood of immoblization high, between the (SPOILER) several intense arty strikes in the bridge vicinity and ease with which vehicles get bogged in the craters. If the bridge gets blocked, there's little you can do besides throw up your hands and say, "well, now there's no way I can take the objectives. That was a fun campaign, I guess..."

I resorted more than once to re-loading saves because of immobilized vehicles. It got to the point that I was saving *every* turn in order not to have the entire campaign come to an premature and highly anticlimactic conclusion -- generally something I don't like to do. It is a game, after all, and to the extent that the game throws up barriers to being able to complete the game, over which one has no control -- I'd say that's not great design.

 

Regardless, like I say, I think the KP campaign is overall terrific, as is Final Blitzkrieg in general.

I actually thought it was a nice touch, having to fight for the bridge. Having a vehicle getting immobilized or destroyed right on top of the bridge and becoming an obstacle is a danger that does exist in reality too. 

Spoilers:

 

Due to the lay of the land I expected an ambush near the bridge. After gaining fire superiority I advanced over the bridge with 2 infantry loaded HT's, under heavy suppression fires and smoke cover. Worked out fine, although I did save just to make sure that no bridge pathfinding troubles could ruin my day ;-)

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lethaface
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************ SPOILER *************

 

 

I made multiple saves during mission #4 (Stavelot) and CF'd to see what effect the final result had on the next mission #5 (Stoumont).  Well...  I couldn't see any difference in the starting situation of #5 regardless if I had a Total Defeat all the way thru Major Victory at Stavelot. 

The advantage of ending the Stavelot mission early with a CF (turn one Total Defeat even) is that you save your units, keep all your 81mm and 120mm mortar ammo and also all the vehicles' ammo - NONE of which seems to be resupplied/replaced for Stoumont.

That is horribly gamey of course, and I hate to do that.  But, I would hate even more to fight 2 hours of Stoumont only to find out that it's not possible to win with the minimal amount of mortar ammo and the badly depleted units (especially infantry and engineers) one may have to start that mission (assuming you used a lot of mortar and vehicular ammo, and took over 5% casualties in earlier missions).

On the other hand, I am having such a great time with this campaign, maybe it IS possible to win with depleted units.  I'll probably tough it out and see if I can win with what I am left with.  Of course since one doesn't get resupply in the Stoumont mission or thereafter, if one is very low on ammo at this point, that may be an even worse problem in the following missions even if one has the units.

Note:  One only gets a resupply in one mission of KG Peiper.  But, the briefing doesn't tell you in which mission.  You have to pay attention to which mission that occurs, and be frugal from then on.  I didn't notice, and for that reason I am tempted to replay this campaign from the start now that I understand that better.  However, that is a major PITA as it's hard to forget where the enemy units are positioned so soon after playing KG Peiper the first time.  The good news is that (am pretty sure) one can simply CF at the start of each of the first 4 missions without penalties, and get to Stoumont with 100% intact forces and full ammo. 

The apparent lack of any need to win in missions 1-4 is this campaign's only glaring "issue".

PS:  Once again, I got more than a platoon of tanks plus Halftracks across that bridge with no problems.  Try making lots of small waypoints across the bridge so the units don't get confused.  And yes, one probably wants to get across when the Allied arty isn't falling.  Hint:  If needed, use lots of vehicular smoke to quickly create a smokescreen that hides the entire bridge and its approaches.

Edited by Erwin
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I checked the effect of CF at the start of Missions 1-4 vs fighting to some sort of victory.  It seemed that at the start of #3 and #4 at least, there were a lot more intact US forces at the start when one was defeated in the previous battle vs when one won.  So, yes there is a reason to win each mission

Also, the resupply takes place at the start of mission #3 (am guessing that is only if one chooses to rest for the night for resupply).  So, one can be profligate with ammo, and probably men and machines, in #1 and #2.  But in #3 and onwards, one needs to become very conservative in expending either. That wasn't stated explicitly in the briefing, or I would have been less wasteful of ammo (especially in #4 where I blasted everything with every gun and MG that could get LOS). 

So...  If one ends up with not enuff stuff in #4 (Stavelot) or #5 (Stoumont), it may be necessary to replay #3 to get a victory (ensuring that you will face fewer US units in #4) with less expenditure of KG Peiper's ammo and equipment in both #3 and #4.  That way one hopefully ends up with sufficient ammo and machines for #5 onwards.

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