Spook Posted December 29, 1999 Share Posted December 29, 1999 Pun intended. In a play of the Chance Encounter scenario (CE), I had opted to shift the US forces into the scattered trees & woods on the right of the entry road. (In this game, heading down an open road without forward recon gives me the heebee jeebies.) Well, in the 3rd or 4th turn, I found that one of the Shermans bogged in a scattered tree region. Both a nasty...and pleasant...surprise. I haven't seen vehicle bogging due to terrain since the Advanced Squad Leader boardgame series. To my relief, the Sherman later freed itself and continued on into the fighting. (All Shermans survived in this one game, and bagged all the Stug's in turn. Another surprise from the "Ronsons".) Well, that has tipped the CM scales in favor to me. I've had earlier concerns regarding the infantry/terrain graphics in the demo, among other issues, but I'll likely put in my pre-order very soon. Now to request some illumination..... I am going to assume for the moment that bogging chances for vehicles will not only count on terrain, but also on weather (like snow/mud). But in CM1, will there be also the chance that certain vehicles can bog or immobilize due to mechanical reliability? Some vehicles like the M3 halftrack series, early British cruiser tanks, and some early Soviet tanks (even the initial T-34 M40's) had some nasty mechanical/drivetrain problems. And for an East Front treatment in the planned CM2, I would hope that the Panther D is properly modeled to burn out its underpowered engine if a German player zips that tank around too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted December 29, 1999 Share Posted December 29, 1999 Hmm I guess everyone else is to busy decrying the failure and degradation of the Forum to have noticed this excellant question! Let me take a stab at it...I don't know! But, I will try and find out as I feel this is a very interesting topic. I do know for certain that differing types of terrain and weather conditions do increase the chances of a vehicle getting 'bogged' or 'immobilized;. Whether a specific vehicles chances of getting stuck are modified by its suspension type or other inherent design 'flaws' I am not sure of, but as I said I will try and find out. Madmatt out ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted December 30, 1999 Author Share Posted December 30, 1999 Maybe it's my trick "Bog" topic title. Couldn't resist the opportunity, though, hehehehe. I did do a forum subject search earlier, and didn't find any posts relating to vehicle drive reliability. Maybe there's something out there in the post archives if I keep trying. Anyway, thanks for your attention, Matt. Anything you can find will be appreciated. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Like Madmatt, I don't know for certain. However, it is my opinion that modeling the susceptibility of different vehicles to terrain-induced problems requires more computer horsepower than is had by a large part of CM's target audience. For CM2, this may well change. However, there are many many other changes/improvements/additions that have already been hinted at by BTS, so it's possible that even after the average wargamer has a mid-range P-3 and AGP (i.e. this time next year) suspension attributes won't be in. It *would* be quite interesting to have them, especially since in the early days of the Tiger, Panther and Elefant, breakdowns or suspension problems were about the only things that could stop them. George Forty's book recounts the disastrous debut of the Tiger, in which 8 or 10 tanks took part in an attack. After the battle had ended, 2 Tigers had to be destroyed because they were disabled in enemy territory, and there weren't any German vehicles in the area of sufficient power to haul the cripples back. Of the others, all but 1 were either immobilized behind friendly lines by breakdowns, or were hampered by non-fatal troubles (one was, to be fair, immobilized by a hit on one of the forward reduction gears) It's astonishing that the German high command (if they even had influence apart from Hitler) continually lost chances to work great things by introducing powerful vehicles, en masse, and after sufficient field-testing had fixed the most glaring problems. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Now, regarding Edmund Morris...Oh,hunh...LOL A real topic! Tell me more about getting UNstuck...I'm rather familar with the STUCK part..How many turn did it take? Did the Sherman come out on it's own or did you try a move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Mark, I find that just giving a bogged vehicle a MOVE order works quite well. I don't think it matters what move order you give so long as you give one. Becoming unstuck is just based on probability so long as you give an order ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Hmmm. Interesting thread. Food for thought. I thought the Tigers' debut was marred by the swampy ground around Leningrad and not so much the actual reliability of the vehicle. I found this a while back when in a discussion about tank pivoting: It talks about a Tiger taking (in the space of 6 hours) 227 hits from AT rifles, 14 hits from 52mm gun (is this even a correct caliber? can't remember such a thing)and 11 hits from a 76.2mm gun and none penetrated. None of that is really surprising. It also says that roadwheels and "connection pieces" (unsure of what is really meant by those)were shot to pieces. 2 swingarms were busted, several AT gun hits struck the track directly, it drove over three mines and still drove 60km cross-country under its own power. Anyway. I don't think there should be any significant processor burden to check for reliability of a vehicle. You could make a good argument that such a thing might be better modeled in an operation where the vehicle might not make it into the fight. I dunno. It might be something neat to have in a battle as well. Imagine Last Defense if the Tiger breaks down in the wrong spot... oh, and Fionn will deny this but he is lucky. Everytime I had a bogged vehicle it was immobilized within a turn or two. Never got one out. And bogging really sucks with a StuG ( = death). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I'm with you. I never have gotten a bogged vehicle out of its hole before it was mincemeat. One StuG in Last Defence was stuck from trun 1 on what looked to be pretty open ground. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Ran a Stug down the 'left' side in one battle...it bogged down 2 times before it made it to the road...took 2-3 turns each time to 'break-free'...had a Stug, in another game, bog down just to the left of the church, and it stayed that way for a number of turns, until it changed to 'immoblized'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted December 30, 1999 Author Share Posted December 30, 1999 Perhaps there is the possibility that CM vehicle specs include the tendency of a certain vehicle to "bog"? I also recall in the ASL series that vehicle "ground pressure" also figured into a vehicle's bog chance. I've only realized just now that I haven't come across any trucks or other wheeled vehicles in the demo. Given the real chance that a tracked vehicle can get stuck sometimes, the larger wheeled vehicles look to be something that would need to stay more roadbound in this game. If this isn't in CM1, it isn't a dealkiller, but given the fidelity applied to other tactical features in the game (like armor/penetration specs, HE near-misses, etc.), it should merit consideration later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Spook - ground pressure is in. Click on a vehicle and then hit enter to see its detailed stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted December 30, 1999 Author Share Posted December 30, 1999 OK, thanks. I can't check that presently, but will do so when I return home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Fionn wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"I find that just giving a bogged vehicle a MOVE order works quite well. I don't think it matters what move order you give so long as you give one. Becoming unstuck is just based on probability so long as you give an order."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure about that, Fionn? The last couple of times I've gotten 'Bogged In', I shut off all movement and the tank unstuck itself within a turn or two (there also weren't any threats to the vehicle at the time, so I had the luxury). I haven't been stuck enough to say for sure, though. But the few times I've gotten 'Bogged In', if I let the tank keep moving, it always Immobilized itself. Or am I just drawing the wrong conclusions from a small sample? - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I had to check back with Charles about it to be sure, but a unit's order have no influence on its chances to "un-bog" or get stuck for good. Once bogged, a vehicle will try to free itself asap and disregards any order it has until it has done so or is immobilized (by throwing a track, driving even deeper into the mud etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Well, I like to give the vehicles a move order for the following reasons: 1. If it unbogs itself I don't want it to sit still in the middle of a field. I want it to move and by giving it an order it ensures that the second it unbogs it'll move out of danger. 2. I like to make them MOVE since I have a feeling that FAST movement makes them more likely to bog down. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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