Are there any completely (or close to) FLAT pre-made maps?

[Xenomorph]

Hello all, 

I'm trying to create a new scenario with a fairly large map (that can be chopped up as needed).  One of my few peevs w this game is that there can be a unit 50 yards away that appears right there for the...blowing to smithereens, but my troops can't "see" it in game.  So I'd like to create a map that's completely flat but I can add in clearly designated hills, streams etc.  It'd be a big time-saver if there's anything like this that already has existing villages, woods etc so I don't have to put in everything.  Thank you!

 

[JonS]

There are several in the editor - completely flat, and in a variety of sizes. Just specify the size you want, and the editor will serve you that map.

[Michael Emrys]

It'd be a big time-saver if there's anything like this that already has existing villages, woods etc so I don't have to put in everything.  Thank you!

Sounds like he doesn't want one that is completely blank in addition to completely flat. Xenomorph, I don't think you are going to find one of those. You can take what the editor gives you—the completely flat part—but you will have to fill in all the blanks yourself.

Michael

[Xenomorph]

Yes, Michael's closer to what I was getting at.  Any suggestions on interesting maps that are close to flat and so would be easily modifiable?  I've messed around with a couple I liked that I guess were more hilly than they looked and "flattening" them was too time consuming.  Thanks for taking the time!

[Glubokii Boy]

i'm afraid that if you want to create scenarios that feels like 'your own' and fits your prefrences you will need to invest some time creating them. 

There's pretty much no way around that.....

Have you tried loading some QB maps into the editor and go from there. The maps with OPEN terrain should be pretty flat i think.

If you use a QB-map for a single player scenario make sure you select an AI plan with no pre made-orders as the active one...

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

Yes, Michael's closer to what I was getting at.  Any suggestions on interesting maps that are close to flat and so would be easily modifiable?  I've messed around with a couple I liked that I guess were more hilly than they looked and "flattening" them was too time consuming.  Thanks for taking the time!

You can flatten any map very quickly. Just load up the map in the editor, then go into elevation controls and choose the tool to set elevation directly (it defaults to 20 metres I think). Then choose the largest "brush" to work with, and you can paint the whole map in no time. Flat as a pancake.

[George MC]

Surely, by now, in the 21st Century, people know the world is not flat!

[Bulletpoint]

Surely, by now, in the 21st Century, people know the world is not flat!

 

By now, finally, people can MAKE it flat

[George MC]

 

By now, finally, people can MAKE it flat

Good point err @Bulletpoint  Make the world in their own image! From my POV striving to make maps as realistic as possible this is baffling. Still, takes all sorts I guess.

[kevinkin]

I don't think the brush system works with the elevation part of the editor. Also, any squares edited with the direct function, those that are black, will have to be adjusted individually.The closest thing to a brush is holding down the left mouse key while in direct mode which will paint a line of the intended elevation, but not a square. 

On another note, I would be careful with 100% flat maps. You can develop some unusual (holy sh*t) sighting situations once you add in foliage/buildings etc. I would add in some random folds in the ground (+3- to 5) elevation units to break up the pool table effect. This is more natural under a majority combat terrain even arid/steppe/farmland. 

That being said, the QB maps will offer a nice head start. Remove AI plans and objectives before you re-size the map or you may have trouble going back and finding them. 

Kevin 

[Bulletpoint]

Good point err @Bulletpoint  Make the world in their own image! From my POV striving to make maps as realistic as possible this is baffling. Still, takes all sorts I guess.

I fully agree with you - I don't make or play "tabletop" maps either, but I thought I would try to help the guy do what he likes anyway.

[Rokko]

You can use the adjust all tool in the editor and decrease the overall height. Once a tile is set at 5 it cant go any lower. Do it long enough (max_height - 5 times to be precise) and everything is fixed at 5 aka completely flat

[kevinkin]

Good tip. That will save the OPer time. The original contour lines will remain black (but now at adjusted to the surrounding constant elevation) until edited which has benefits for back adding in some undulations.

Kevin 

[Bud Backer]

I like terrain that has a more realistic feel to it but the OP didn't say the map had to be totally flat, as he wanted to add some hills etc. I think that LOS subtleties can be frustrating to players who are looking for a more "straightforward" war. I had an opponent some months ago tell me that my maps were too complex, and he wanted something flat with some LOS obstacles like trees and maybe a few houses. We didn't pursue this as I can't imagine that as being very interesting let alone immersive in 3D mode, but clearly there is something about LOS simplicity that is sought after. 

[Michael Emrys]

I like terrain that has a more realistic feel to it but the OP didn't say the map had to be totally flat, as he wanted to add some hills etc. I think that LOS subtleties can be frustrating to players who are looking for a more "straightforward" war. I had an opponent some months ago tell me that my maps were too complex, and he wanted something flat with some LOS obstacles like trees and maybe a few houses. We didn't pursue this as I can't imagine that as being very interesting let alone immersive in 3D mode, but clearly there is something about LOS simplicity that is sought after. 

This may be getting back to the "Panzerblitz Effect". IIRC the hexes were supposed to represent 250 meters across, so quite long sight lines were possible in that game.

Michael

[Glubokii Boy]

I think that making sure that the scenario has clear weather and daylight conditions will atleast limit strange LOS occurrences as far as possible...

[Bulletpoint]

clearly there is something about LOS simplicity that is sought after. 

I think what many people really want is to be able to see the contours of the map better.

[Ts4EVER]

I think the problem lies not so much in weird los occurences (even though these of course happen from time to time), but with the terrain in Red Thunder.

One thing I noticed it that the Normandy (and to a lesser extent the Italy) game just plays a whole lot better. In mainstream game design, which is not governed by considerations of modelling reality quite as much, developers usually strive for a certain "clarity" when designing maps, meaning it is important that maps are easy to navigate and that players are always aware of their choices and have at least a basic understanding of the possible effects of these choices. This allows them to make tactical decisions.

In Normandy and Italy, this is actually kinda the case, because the maps are structured by Bocage hedgerows or, in the case of Italy, hilly terrain and stone walls. If you put an infantry unit near a hedge, you can see at one glance from where they are protected and where they are vulnerable, you know that they will line up against the hedge to concentrate their firepower to one side and from the gaps you have a set of limited movement options that govern your tactical approach. This basically turns the game into a weirdly compelling geometry puzzle of always trying to get into the back of that next line.

In RT this simply doesn't work. The terrain is not that extreme, so it is hard to judge contour lines from high up. There are no hedges, instead infantry cover is usually forests, which do not function very well ingame. Basically it is almost impossible to easily judge:

- How save is my infantry how deep in what kind of forest?

- How effectively can they still shoot out?

- Are they safer from fire coming from direction x than from direction y?

- If I send my guys into this treeline, will they all be able to look out? How will they position themselves?

This together with occasional flaws in the complex spotting system leads to infantry combat that feels "random" or "murky", because it is hard to judge what effect your orders have. This in turn leads to frustration, when the player receives casualties that he feels he couldn't have predicted or prevented. In that mindset of course, los bugs stand out more and seem more annoying as well.

[kevinkin]

Thanks for the interesting POV. To summarize, the issue with RT vs the other titles is the apparent God-like AI spotting across a landscape that is broken so subtly that the player can't predict with any certainty LOS as they fight the battle? (Again, when compared to Normandy and Italy.)

Kevin 

[Ts4EVER]

Dunno if the AI spotting plays into it, but yeah, the landscape make predicting los and cover very hard for the player. In Normandy usually I take one look at the map and I see: Ah, here I can put an mg in overwatch, here I can move my first platoon to hedgeline one, then leapfrog platoon 2 to a hedge 50m further etc. It's a step by step process. In RT I often can't even tell what my guys will be able to shoot from any given position. Does that dip in the ground give cover to my troops? Will they be able to shoot from it? I recently played the little "Dawn Patrol" scenario and it had me cursing at the screen simply because it felt like there was no proper overwatch position to be had for my Maxims. I mean they are hills, but the effect seemed to be not different from just sitting in the open.

Edit: And just so we are clear, I am not talking about "difficulty levels". There are pretty difficult missions in BN or FI, that is not the point. The point is that in those games you usually have the feeling that your success depends on your decisions, whereas in RT I often feel at the mercy of either the los mechanics or chance.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Ts4EVER

[76mm]

You can check the map database I made for CMRT (see link in signature); you can sort maps by size and terrain type ("flat").  Note that in the DB I didn't differentiate between "pretty flat" and "totally flat", so you might need to look at a few maps to find exactly what you want.

Edited March 18, 2016 by 76mm

[kevinkin]

Spotting comes up now and then in this forum but I do not recall in comparison to other titles depicting others theaters.  RT maps might need to be more overtly elevated across wider more open spaces to aid the player in positioning/moving. Maybe, never thought of that. 

Kevin

[Ts4EVER]

Well in the interest of realism and properly simulating the kind of terrain on the eastern front probably the terrain itself shouldn't be changed, but maybe ways need to be found to aid the player in interpreting it. Something to make crests more apparent or maybe an overhaul of how forests function. For instance, I could see having a material for "forest edges" that works much like hedgerows (meaning troops line up against it etc). Often forests have thick bushes along the edges, but not so much inside, where less light hits the ground. Anyway, that is just from the top of my head.

[Baneman]

Well in the interest of realism and properly simulating the kind of terrain on the eastern front probably the terrain itself shouldn't be changed, but maybe ways need to be found to aid the player in interpreting it. Something to make crests more apparent or maybe an overhaul of how forests function.

Speaking personally, I've always found that dropping the camera to level 1 and moving back and forth gives the best understanding of the terrain.
It takes a little time, but the payoff is worth it.

[Michael Emrys]

Speaking personally, I've always found that dropping the camera to level 1 and moving back and forth gives the best understanding of the terrain.It takes a little time, but the payoff is worth it.

Yeah, it's surprising how much dropping down into View 1 reveals. A lot of times a map that looks billiard table smooth from, say, View 3 turns out to have quite a lot of undulations when you get down in the weeds.

Michael