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Hello all,

i have some question for better players then me.

* what is exact deploy time for AT-14 ATGM in the buildings? Is it influenced by experience of the soldiers, more conscripts, less elite? Can be this information included into info bar, now is deploy time 50 sec, in the future maybe something like 50/1.5 to have this sort of information? Why are they always redeploying??? How to do it so they stay deployed and finaly shoot the missile???

* what is exact deploy time for AT-13 ATGM in the buildings? Is it influenced by experience of the soldiers, more conscripts, less elite? Can be this information included into info bar, now is deploy time 50 sec, in the future maybe something like 50/1.5 to have this sort of information? Why are they always redeploying??? How to do it so they stay deployed and finaly shoot the missile???

* what is exact deploy time MG in the buildings?

* what is the range for ATGM's not to be spotted by armor without problems?

* i want to bombard enemy Abrams with arty, why its bulletproof from top? Only precision fire can destroy it? Why at least volume of falling shells cannot damage tracks or some sensors? How is it in real life?

* how to use RPO-M Shmel correctly? Bad against armor, bad against building? Good for what? Why same icon like antitank?

* why no Kord heavy machine gun in use by Russian troops? Is Pecheneg really enough?

* what is better art 2S3M2 Akatsiya or 2S19M2 Msta-B?

* what arty observation vehicle do you prefer PRP-4M or BTR-80 1V152? How to use them? let arty observer and air controler in or close or your way of using it? Who give orders then vehicle or observer or air controler?

* has AGS-17/30 minimum range safe for crew? They refuse to shoot in close enemy...

* how much points do i get for assault and probe quick game? i alwyas habe 8500 points... can i change them?

* if i add tanks to the BN Tac BTR Group where to put them to get most quickest info distribution? Direst under BN command or under Company command?

 

Sorry if posted before, show me where if so...

Thanx Gamdres aka Gaming Comrades :)

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I think you should give those questions numbers so people can answer them more easily.

Anyway, I'm gonna copy the glorious style of the great Armoured Sour Cabbage Launcher.

Re: Deployment in buildings

You gotta check them out yourself, it's ~2 minutes. The very long deployment time of crew-served weapons in buildings has been discussed elsewhere (I think in the CMRT forum). I think the AT-13 deploys much faster than the AT-14 though.

Re: ATGMs being spotted by armour

Well, it really depends. The Abrams' sensors are the best in the game, so I've had instances of AT-14s being detected from ~1 km or more after launching just ONE missile. If you use the AT-14 and AT-13 as you would use the Javelin, you'll fail. Usage of Khrizantemas (due to radar-based spotting) and T-90s together with infantry ATGMs is key.

Re: Arty on tanks

It does degrade sensors. And it rather easily immobilises tanks.

Re: Game points

It depends on battle size.

Re: RPO

It does work against infantry in buildings, though I've found myself taking more casualties from RPGs than RPOs due to their wider proliferation.

Re: Adding elements to BN tac groups

I think you should add them to lower levels, it makes more sense organisationally.

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Re: Weapons setup in general

It's also not just "pop out tripod" setup, it's preparing the position to have a weapon operated within it. This might be moving furniture, clearing firing ports, or any number of other thingies.  Some folks feel it takes too long, I'm on the fence simply because it can really take a while to make a crew served weapon ready for firing, especially if it's one that might be carried in multiple pieces and is especially large.  Either way don't count on an ATGM team that isn't a shoulder fired sort of unit being ready to fire quickly.

Re: Spotting range

Depends on the tank, depends on the terrain.  On a map approximating Kuwait 1991, they're going to be visible beyond missile range to an M1A2.  On a map with more broken terrain and stands of trees, it might be 500 meters but it also might still be 2 KM because that tank got lucky.  Think less in terms of distance and more in terms of concealment.  Do also be mindful of the effects of concealment on ATGMs though (as many of them do not like treelines).  Often it's better however to have a fairly narrow FOV ATGM position that's well concealed from all other directions.  Basically the better spotting conditions go both ways, the more an ATGM team can see, the more enemies can see it.

Re: Artillery vs tanks

All armored vehicles are fairly hard to kill with general bombardments, you need pretty good saturation to start seeing effects that are crippling.  Mobility/sensor damage doesn't appear uncommon again assuming some level of saturation, although if you're playing against someone I wouldn't count on them hanging around to let you achieve that. If you're using airbursts however just stop.  

Re: RPO

Works pretty well against troops from what I hear, although it doesn't seem to generate consistent results would appear to be the complaint about it.  Not exactly a good tool for AT though.

Re: Kord

The equipment available to the Russian troops is what is currently allocated by the available information on Russian military planning.  If there's no Kords it's because the units in question do not operate them.

Re: AGS

Likely minimum range, or the enemy is in some sort of defilade and the weapon cannot be brought to bear.  

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* what is exact deploy time for AT-14 ATGM in the buildings? Is it influenced by experience of the soldiers, more conscripts, less elite? Can be this information included into info bar, now is deploy time 50 sec, in the future maybe something like 50/1.5 to have this sort of information? Why are they always redeploying??? How to do it so they stay deployed and finaly shoot the missile???

* what is exact deploy time for AT-13 ATGM in the buildings? Is it influenced by experience of the soldiers, more conscripts, less elite? Can be this information included into info bar, now is deploy time 50 sec, in the future maybe something like 50/1.5 to have this sort of information? Why are they always redeploying??? How to do it so they stay deployed and finaly shoot the missile???

* what is exact deploy time MG in the buildings?

@panzersaurkrautwerfer pretty much covered that from a why is it that way and @LukeFF pretty much covered the how you can get your answers.  I'll only add that crew training level does make a difference and that I think the setup times will not be identical every time - there is some randomness in there.  I have not formally tested that though it is just my impression.  Let us know your findings :)

 

* what is the range for ATGM's not to be spotted by armor without problems?

There are lots of variables there for sure also what kind of concealment the ATGM crew have.  A crew in a wheat field will be harder to spot than in the open grassy field and one at the edge of the woods will be even harder to spot.

 

* i want to bombard enemy Abrams with arty, why its bulletproof from top? Only precision fire can destroy it? Why at least volume of falling shells cannot damage tracks or some sensors? How is it in real life?

They are definitely not bulletproof from the top.  They are very tough though.  If you get a 155mm hit you will make a mess of it and possibly destroy it.  Misses can definitely cause system damage and immobilization.

 

...

* how much points do i get for assault and probe quick game? i alwyas habe 8500 points... can i change them?

No you cannot change it.  Well actually you can tweak the balance a bit by giving one side a few more points but you cannot pick a point value.  It is a feature that is requested often - a personal favourite of mine.

 

* if i add tanks to the BN Tac BTR Group where to put them to get most quickest info distribution? Direst under BN command or under Company command?

For quickest it depends on who the information is coming from.  If a squad an enemy then a tank under command of that platoon will get the information the quickest.  If the company FO team spots something then a tank attached to the company CO would get it first.  Honestly I would recommend you place a tank under the lowest level that they are going to be working with.

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@panzersaurkrautwerfer pretty much covered that from a why is it that way and @LukeFF pretty much covered the how you can get your answers.  I'll only add that crew training level does make a difference and that I think the setup times will not be identical every time - there is some randomness in there.  I have not formally tested that though it is just my impression.  Let us know your findings :)

Where to find it? Trying to find it, but search engine hates me...

The most important question is how to stop redeploying... 17 turns of redeploying for AT-14 is not normal...

I am suprised about recommendation to place tank under the lowest level... I expected with all this supertechnical battle networks like Constelation2 that higher is still better...

Who has expereince with arty observation vehicles?

Thanx a lot.

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Arty vehicles can spot on their own. Use a scout team from an inf squad to take out the rpg 7 ammo and dismount the team to its home squad. I bastly prefer the PRP. Use it like an FO team thats got wheels and keep your FOs on foot in other sectors you want to cover.

The at13 deploys fastest by far in bldgs. Like 15 seconds. Youre probably seeing at14s redeploy in.bldgs so much because if a target is on another bldg side they have to reset up.the whole piece which takes about 2.3 min anyway.

 

You can change the point values by the battle size though each size still has only one value. The ratio of points given to attacker over defender depends and goes up from equal at meeting engagements to attacker gets about 1.8x times more points on assaults.

Notice i said battle size. The map size is different. You can squish a 8500 pt force onto a tiny map or a 1000pt force on a huge map. I found a good rule of thumb to be map size always one greater than force size when possible to allow movement and more mystery about where troops are.

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@panzersaurkrautwerfer pretty much covered that from a why is it that way and @LukeFF pretty much covered the how you can get your answers.  I'll only add that crew training level does make a difference and that I think the setup times will not be identical every time - there is some randomness in there.  I have not formally tested that though it is just my impression.  Let us know your findings :)

Where to find it? Trying to find it, but search engine hates me...

I meant you can setup a test scenario and try it out.  I don't think anyone has.  At least they have not reported on it.

 

The most important question is how to stop redeploying... 17 turns of redeploying for AT-14 is not normal...

Yeah, that sounds wrong.  Where is it deploying in a building?
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I can see the 17 turns tho if its setting up which takes 2 or 3 turns then has to face another side of the building. It resets the whole process. Or the crew gets shelled and decides to flee the building. Yea u can cancel the order and order them back here to setup but its all from scratch again 

However if itd an at14 with no targets or change in face commands and it took 17 turns to deploy something is insanely wrong. That said i play bs exclusively as the evil soviets er Russians (cof cof ya right - in name.only cof cof) and Ive mever encountered that. I have encountered what i described but it was understandable. Tanks move. To redeploy in a building can take time. Etc etc.

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It does sound like he just sorta plopped an AT-14 team in a building and let them adjust accordingly.

Any sort of tripod weapon in CMBS requires very deliberate placement as unlike shoulder mounted AT weapons, or LMGs, they require some combination of things being unfolded, loads being unpacked, optics being turned on and the place in which the weapon now dwells being prepared for the weapon's operation (making a clear lane for the missile to depart the firing point, finding SOMETHING that'll keep the hundred plus pounds of the weapons system securely at window level, waiting for the guidance thing to warm up etc).  

When you put an AT-14 in a building, it needs to get a sector of fire or a facing or it'll establish itself in a place that'll require the missile to get repacked to go to the other part of the building.  Seventeen turns just sounds weird though, as generally the few times I've employed any non-shoulder fired ATGM, it's taken minutes, but it hasn't taken the better part of a game to get set up.  

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No but I had a quasi similar problem where first an at 14 had to switch facing. That ate a few min. Then the enemy wildly pulled back. Switched again after several turns of realizing they were recommitting in an entirely diff direction.  Finaly after a shot they got hit one KIA no weapon damage. After that it was an endless loop of them freaking out if a mouse farted in china undeploying and running me giving them the comp equivalent of pulling my sidearm on them and them setting up. To freak out again and be forced.. at mousepoint to set up again. IanL should remember the battle it was his US attack against my troops in a town where I KOd a bunch of Brads at short range and he basically massacred my T90s in the big town on his left flank. The map with the huge twin towers on the other side in a compound.. its a huge map.

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Its listed as huge. It has a lake with a footbridge leadig to a small isle in it near the urban center?

I really screwed up and sprang my rpg ambush on ur left too soon ian. Yes the arty on the building you chose to enter the town on had a trp by it and it rlly gave your assault teams a bloody nose and spewed enough dust and crap up to isolate that little pocket of fighting from.your long range fire. It was very pleasurable.to knock out one brad after another to those 50 or 100 m front on at13 shots but you only lost an abrams.or two if at all and i still lost in the end. 

My tank use was less than inspired.

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I have 2 questions, so I'll ask them here instead of opening a new thread,

1. what's the best way to fight with squads in very close range, in buildings,etc..., in other words, what commands to use? I always have problems with that, for example I've played CMSF today, all patched up and had 6 soldiers walk into a building, with the assault command or slow command and there was this single terrorist with an AK literally in the middle of the room and my soldiers just walked next to him, less than 2 meters from him, they didn't even stop for a second to shoot at him and they acted like he doesn't exist, he then started shooting and killed 3 or 4 of my soldiers, until the remaining 2 soldiers started shooting as a reaction to his shooting, how did that even happen? I'd understand if I chose the fast command, but I chose the assault or slow, don't remember, but either way they were supposed to walk in slowly and check, but he was in the middle of the room, there's no possible way they didn't see him...and yet they didn't.

2. Frontage and AO, I am trying to put those concepts in my games, so I was wondering...is your map basically your AO and is the width/frontage of the maps in cm games realistic or just of a random size, meaning that it can be completely unrealistic for let's say..a company to attack on?

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Yes, you can make the AO as ,,dense" as you want, I know that, for example battle of Stalingrad, Berlin,etc, but I am asking because of the opposite thing, what happens when you have too little forces? For example could a company advance on a frontage of 1 to 1.5 kilometers or is that too much?  Sometimes I just feel like the map is too big for my units to cover it (even after reinf. come), maybe because I am a noob, but still.. 

Also here's one kind of related question that may ask my original question, let's imagine this, in real life let's say that a brigade is advancing into enemy territory, it crossed the enemy country border, but there is no enemies, one of the opfor manuals I found on the internet says that a brigade advances on a 3 to 8km frontage (zone of attack, strike sector is half of that), so from what I kind of understood, in this scenario you would have multiple security companies that would advance on multiple roads on that 3-8km wide front, while the main body would advance back on one main road, right? Or would the entire main body (or at least the avantguard) be spread across the frontage?

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Pretty much every manual ever written was designed a guide to good ideas but not exactly as a this must be so or everyone will die.  A tank platoon could cover a 1 KM frontage fairly well in open more or less flat desert.  Often Objective SPOONMAN will need to be cleared and frankly all we have is TF D Co 1-18 INF despite the fact the manual says it should be 2-3 Companies.  

Often these guidelines are also used sort of like, instead of imagining them as something set into stone they're there to prompt questions and thought.  I'm sending a Company to do a Battalion's frontage.  What else do they need to be successful in spite of being a Company?  I might give that unit absolute priority of fires for artillery, a platoon of Apaches for their assault phase of the operation, and direct Shadow support (this is where the phrase "combat multipliers" comes from to a large degree).  

It's also worth keeping in mind that CMBS is still a game.  And a lot of the missions are not designed to be strictly "correct", but instead present a challenging mission for the player.   

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I personally advance in unknown territory with a striking battalion on the march:

1 advance Mech Inf Co,  with 2 platoons, 1 down. Engineers/sappers and ATGM as augmentation. 

1-2 reinf Armor platoon

2 Mech Inf Co abreast behind,  to outflank enemy defenses/attacks or counter enemy out flanking of my forward elements. 

Reserve Armor and MI platoons. These will be my ekite/crack Inf, for max effect. 

I scale this arrangement down to squad-platoon-MBT quite easily. It's not the most inventive,  but it allows accordianing of my 2nd and 3rd lines in and out of contact,  and protects flanks quite well. 

It's working against Abbasid -  so far... But he's gone all squirrelly and hidden.. 

 

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Yes, you can make the AO as ,,dense" as you want, I know that, for example battle of Stalingrad, Berlin,etc, but I am asking because of the opposite thing, what happens when you have too little forces? For example could a company advance on a frontage of 1 to 1.5 kilometers or is that too much?  Sometimes I just feel like the map is too big for my units to cover it (even after reinf. come), maybe because I am a noob, but still.. 

It has a lot to do with what you're up against in the terrain you have to defend.  If you're out in the open with a depleted company of infantry and are facing a full two battalions of heavy forces you're probably screwed unless you have huge amount of off map assets at your disposal.  It's amazing what a mass of 155s and some well placed registration points can do for you.  "Force multiplier" for sure :D

If you have minimal forces and your opponent does as well, then there's things you can do to hold ground.  My personal preference is to concede maneuver to the enemy and concentrate on knowing where he is and what he's doing.  Then make sure whatever he does I can meet him with concentrated fire.  Spreading out defenses too much offers the other guy the opportunity to concentrate force in such a way that you can't respond in kind. 

Also here's one kind of related question that may ask my original question, let's imagine this, in real life let's say that a brigade is advancing into enemy territory, it crossed the enemy country border, but there is no enemies, one of the opfor manuals I found on the internet says that a brigade advances on a 3 to 8km frontage (zone of attack, strike sector is half of that), so from what I kind of understood, in this scenario you would have multiple security companies that would advance on multiple roads on that 3-8km wide front, while the main body would advance back on one main road, right? Or would the entire main body (or at least the avantguard) be spread across the frontage?

Variable.  It depends a lot on what the force thinks is in front of it.  If it is pretty sure there's something significant then it's probably going to keep the main body up front with minimal feelers in front of it.  If, on the other hand, it doesn't have a clue what's in front of it then it's likely going to put feelers way out front and then adjust the main body as required to get the job done.

The Soviets, in both WW2 and to some extent after, have viewed recon very differently than the West in terms of scale.  The West might send a company, the Soviets a battalion.  The Soviets were also, traditionally at least, not too concerned about flanks and rear when doing breakthrough ops.  The thinking was the breakthrough force would be so disruptive that organized resistance against it could not be mounted fast enough to be an issue before follow on forces hit them.  When this worked for the Soviets in WW2 it *really* worked.  They could make huge breakthroughs that went deep into the German lines.  The problem with this practice was prone to failure and failure meant a lot of smashed up Soviet units sometimes without any real gains.  Even during the crushing Bagration offensive the Soviets suffered some pretty horrific losses at the Regimental and even up to the Corps level a few times.  However, the overall effect was one of the biggest military defeats of modern history for the Germans, so in the end the Soviets came out way ahead.

Think about it this way... the US Thunder Run into Baghdad was a huge risk and it paid off big.  Everybody got a lot of slaps of congratulation on the back.  But what would have happened if 12 Abrams were lit up along with a bunch of cooked infantry in Bradleys?  Congressional investigations and lots of men with bits of metal on their shoulders being shuffled off to manage mail rooms.  Same goes for CM battles, especially multiplayer where the opponent can mock your spectacular failures on the Forums :D

Steve

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