Some things for 4.0

[Baneman]

these.  Spot on for me.  As an ex 81mm mortarman and MFC once you have called in a FM on a target and are happy with adjustments if u need to call fire on it again it would basically be, "hello 4.2 Alpha, fire mission, xray one two 10 rounds super quick, ffe, followed by a rate 6 over."

Those rounds would be literally being dropped down the barrels in about 40 seconds.  However things do change if the mortar line has moved, you have to re-spot fall of shot, so it would take longer then.

Yeah, I would be onboard for that sort of thing as long as that battery/unit has not fired a different mission in the meantime. ( or moved, if on-map unit ).

ie. the mission you're currently firing creates a "Temporary TRP" on the target for that unit which would vanish if you moved or fired a new mission elsewhere.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Baneman

[Michael Emrys]

Yeah, I would be onboard for that sort of thing as long as that battery/unit has not fired a different mission in the meantime. ( or moved, if on-map unit ).

ie. the mission you're currently firing creates a "Temporary TRP" on the target for that unit which would vanish if you moved or fired a new mission elsewhere.

I can understand the need to re-plot if the battery has moved, but where is the need if all they have done is fire a different mission in the meantime? As long as they have recorded the numbers, which is SOP as I understand it, if they have not moved they can re-lay the guns/mortars using the same numbers.

Michael

[Big Boss]

I can understand the need to re-plot if the battery has moved, but where is the need if all they have done is fire a different mission in the meantime? As long as they have recorded the numbers, which is SOP as I understand it, if they have not moved they can re-lay the guns/mortars using the same numbers.

Michael

Yes, I was about to ask the same thing. Even if you fired a few other mission between the "Hill" target you should imo be able to use the same calculations again. If you moved the battery, of course its a whole new deal. 

[Sublime]

Emrys is also familiar with the book I mentioned. I too see no need unless the battery has moved. From my understanding of Western Front US and probably Brit arty practices anywhere troops stayed in positions for a day or more or were expected to hold got at least one or two "concentrations" (in cm trps) to quickly call in fire. Usually where the concentrations to call in would be based on hard experience or because of obvious terrain features like church steeples and or finally observation of frequent enemy movement in that locale.

[Baneman]

I do agree with your reasoning re. firing other missions, but I was thinking more for gameplay, one "Temp TRP" would probably be enough, otherwise in long games gamey players could build up a network of areas they have bombarded lightly and abuse the system wholeheartedly.

[Michael Emrys]

I do agree with your reasoning re. firing other missions, but I was thinking more for gameplay, one "Temp TRP" would probably be enough, otherwise in long games gamey players could build up a network of areas they have bombarded lightly and abuse the system wholeheartedly.

I should think that the existing limitations on ammo would discourage that. If you shoot up much of your ammo marking TRPs, you won't have it when you need to bombard an enemy unit. Besides, it would be time consuming for the unit calling for shots and correcting them. While I suppose some abuse might be possible, I do not foresee it becoming much of a big deal.

Michael

Edited March 13, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[Baneman]

I should think that the existing limitations on ammo would discourage that. If you shoot up much of your ammo marking TRPs, you won't have it when you need to bombard an enemy unit. Besides, it would be time consuming for the unit calling for shots and correcting them. While I suppose some abuse might be possible, I do not foresee it becoming much of a big deal.

Michael

Are you SURE you know how people play ?

My experience tells me that if a game mechanic allows something, it WILL be used/abused  
For an offboard mortar section with 100 rounds, one or two Light/Long bombardments could easily be used without blowing through more than 10-15 rounds,

[Michael Emrys]

For an offboard mortar section with 100 rounds, one or two Light/Long bombardments could easily be used without blowing through more than 10-15 rounds,

Okay, so that gives you one or two TRPs, hardly what I would call a network. For a very minor cost, a player can buy that many and more at the beginning of the game.

Michael

[weta_nz]

Hi,

What about infantry squads automatically deploying smoke when they get nervous / panicky if they have it. In much the same way as tanks do already. The good think about it is they will hopefully put it between them and the shooter. I find when i manually do it it doesn't seem to go where i want. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by weta_nz

[Rafter11]

FIRE MISSION OPTIONS  CM 4.0

As of now under CM 3.0, if I give a "target" command to a mortar unit, it fires until it either gets a "cease fire" or it runs out of ammo.  Because mortar ammo is limited (32 rds per tube), have you given any thought to adding a volley command which would limit the "fire for effect" to 3 or 5 rounds per tube?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Rafter11

[Michael Emrys]

30 minutes ago, Rafter11 said:

FIRE MISSION OPTIONS  CM 4.0

As of now under CM 3.0, if I give a "target" command to a mortar unit, it fires until it either gets a "cease fire" or it runs out of ammo.  Because mortar ammo is limited (32 rds per tube), have you given any thought to adding a volley command which would limit the "fire for effect" to 3 or 5 rounds per tube?

Are you talking about firing the mortar indirectly via the artillery tab and observer or directly? In both cases there are ways to limit ammunition expenditure. If firing indirectly, you can choose a Light, Short mission and then cancel that after one or two minutes of firing. If firing directly, use the Target Briefly tool.

Michael

[Rafter11]

Michael,

In direct fire mode, I tried the "Target Briefly" command.  Maybe I am doing something wrong, but all I got was a couple of Adjust Fire rounds, but no Fire for Effect.  To answer your question, I was talking about both indirect and direct.  I will go play around some more with indirect light and short.

Thanks

[A Canadian Cat]

Speaking of direct fire here: The problem with target briefly is after the timer runs down it stops even if the team has not adjusted their aim.  A useful technique is to use target light.  That will use a slower rate of fire. Many people find it very handy. 

[Rafter11]

Something else for me to try.  This is a great forum.  Thanks IanL

[Michael Emrys]

And you can use Target Briefly to target not-so-briefly. You can click on the command as many times as you like and it adds 15 seconds with every click.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

8 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

And you can use Target Briefly to target not-so-briefly. 

Oh yes that is a great feature. I also use it to make sure i dont forget to order a supporting unit to stop firing. Instead of having to remember to cancel a target order I can set the target briefly to 1:15 and instead remember to extened the time if needed.

[c3k]

I would prefer a round count and intensity call for indirect missions. E.g., "20 HE, rapid" or "12 Airburst, medium". 

Putting TRPs where previous missions landed is not optimal. In-game, a TRP gives an advantage to EVERY weapon, even machineguns. Instead, I would like a "Linked TRP" which is only usable by the asset which fired. (That would then open the can of worms: is every 81mm mortar firing indirect colocated with the same FDC? What about offmap 155mm? Should they be considered the same asset? Or, if I have 6 81mm indirect tubes, do they all have individual "linked TRPs"?)

Another solution would be to keep it internal. E.g., after that one particular unit fires at the hilltop, it, and only it, would be able to fire at the hilltop with a greatly reduced delay. But, how would that information get relayed to the player, and should it?

Currently, to represent monstrous ammo depots for artillery support, the designer can add reinforcement indirect assets. I.e., at turn 20, 6 more 105mm batteries become available. That lets/prompts the player into blowing through all the ammo that the initial 6 105mm tubes have, since he knows he'll get more. If the TRPs are linked to the first 6 tubes, then all that targeting benefit is erased when the "new" tubes show up. (Remembering that the new tubes are used to buff up the ammo stocks, not necessarily trying to show that a new battery is suddenly available: the old one just has double the ammo.)

Ken

 

[cool breeze]

I think target light work better for direct firing mortars.  With target briefly its kinda tricky to use because they shoot spotting rounds for x number of rounds and then they shoot fast for y time remaining.  With target light they just shoot one round at a time and wait for it to land before adjusting and shooting again.  IIRC.

IanL said,

"Speaking of direct fire here: The problem with target briefly is after the timer runs down it stops even if the team has not adjusted their aim.  A useful technique is to use target light.  That will use a slower rate of fire. Many people find it very handy.  "

I was late to the party, I see I'm not adding anything here. Carry on.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2016 by cool breeze

[Doc844]

I must admit I would very much like a more detailed arty tab.  Light medium heavy emergency just doesn't really cut it for me.  I would like to have control of exactly how many rounds I'm expending, whether it be a FFE or a rate.  Ie a rate 2 would be 2 rounds a minute and a rate 12 would be 12 rounds a minute.  This then gives the player more flexibility on how he plans his fire missions.  I'm actually quite surprised that BF have never updated this before.  

[Bulletpoint]

On 3/24/2016 at 9:11 PM, Doc844 said:

I must admit I would very much like a more detailed arty tab.  Light medium heavy emergency just doesn't really cut it for me.  I would like to have control of exactly how many rounds I'm expending, whether it be a FFE or a rate.  Ie a rate 2 would be 2 rounds a minute and a rate 12 would be 12 rounds a minute.  This then gives the player more flexibility on how he plans his fire missions.  I'm actually quite surprised that BF have never updated this before.  

I would like the same thing, but I guess it's because some guns are unable to fire that fast. So the interface would have to change for each battery.

Still would like to see it implemented, or some other means of better being able to control rate of fire.

Maybe give the player a preview screen that said "Ok, so you chose to fire 2x81mm mortars at medium intensity. That will give you a rate of fire of apprx. 20 rounds per minute. Yes/no"?

[Placebo]

On 24/03/2016 at 8:11 PM, Doc844 said:

I must admit I would very much like a more detailed arty tab.  Light medium heavy emergency just doesn't really cut it for me.  I would like to have control of exactly how many rounds I'm expending, whether it be a FFE or a rate.  Ie a rate 2 would be 2 rounds a minute and a rate 12 would be 12 rounds a minute.  This then gives the player more flexibility on how he plans his fire missions.  I'm actually quite surprised that BF have never updated this before.  

I really like that idea, I don't like guessing what medium duration might be for a 75mm field gun, if it showed a number for rate of fire and number of shells that would be a great improvement.

[Ultradave]

On March 24, 2016 at 10:12 AM, c3k said:

I would prefer a round count and intensity call for indirect missions. E.g., "20 HE, rapid" or "12 Airburst, medium". 

Putting TRPs where previous missions landed is not optimal. In-game, a TRP gives an advantage to EVERY weapon, even machineguns. Instead, I would like a "Linked TRP" which is only usable by the asset which fired. (That would then open the can of worms: is every 81mm mortar firing indirect colocated with the same FDC? What about offmap 155mm? Should they be considered the same asset? Or, if I have 6 81mm indirect tubes, do they all have individual "linked TRPs"?)

Another solution would be to keep it internal. E.g., after that one particular unit fires at the hilltop, it, and only it, would be able to fire at the hilltop with a greatly reduced delay. But, how would that information get relayed to the player, and should it?

Currently, to represent monstrous ammo depots for artillery support, the designer can add reinforcement indirect assets. I.e., at turn 20, 6 more 105mm batteries become available. That lets/prompts the player into blowing through all the ammo that the initial 6 105mm tubes have, since he knows he'll get more. If the TRPs are linked to the first 6 tubes, then all that targeting benefit is erased when the "new" tubes show up. (Remembering that the new tubes are used to buff up the ammo stocks, not necessarily trying to show that a new battery is suddenly available: the old one just has double the ammo.)

Ken

 

This is a good point. The 155 battery will have the data for the target that it fired at and could very quickly re-fire the mission, however the infantry mortars on map WILL NOT have that data. A battery or mortar section will only have the data that they fired themselves. The "data" is deflection and elevation of the tubes (and time for a time fuse air burst), so that of course varies with where the battery is physically located.

So if it's a different firing unit, they don't have the data. If the original firing unit moves, they no longer have the data and have to recalculate from their new location (not an issue in the game for off map artillery, but certainly an issue for mortars on the map.

[George MC]

On 05/03/2016 at 3:19 AM, Michael Emrys said:

Yeah, that was the essence of my thinking. The Germans were good at it pretty much all the way through the war. The Allies performance was spottier, depending on how much the local commander was on the ball. While it was an established part of doctrine, I'm afraid it was honored more often in the breach than in the practice, and a lot of arm or unit snobbery hurt cooperation.

Michael

I agree having the ability to create kampfgruppes etc with one boss would be great.

However you can sort of do this in CM at the moment, especially with German armoured troops ensuring info is shared. I sue this wee tip a lot in some of the larger actions I play where you have perhaps a company of Pzg in SPW, company of armour and some recce units. This where your 2ICs come in really, really handy.

To ensure any spotting info 9shared via radio) is communicated down the line all you need to do is split off the 2ICs of your attached companies and keep em close to the boss's of their sister company e.g. 2IC of the armour unit goes with the Boss of th SPW unit and vice versa. This also gives you two command groups so if one lot get whacked you don't lose all your C&C. If you have a recce unit then split of their 2IC (or compnay boss) and place em with one of the command groups. You'll soon find that any info filters down. It's a bit slower than it would be if they were all under the same command but it's a neat wee workaround till we have the ability to create bespoke task groups/kampfgruppes/combat commands. This works well in user created scenarios but might be a wee bit toguher to do in QBs, still yu can adpt this and use the same principles even in QBs. 

[Michael Emrys]

46 minutes ago, George MC said:

...yu can adpt this and use the same principles even in QBs. 

Yeah, I have kind of been playing around with this for a couple of months. If for instance I have a company of infantry and a (reduced) company of armor, I will do-locate the HQs of both companies, close enough together to be in shouting range of each other. I don't have anything definite to report yet on any improvement in sharing spotting information, but I will keep at it if for no other reason than I like the principle. Using the 2ics sounds good too.

Michael

[George MC]

1 hour ago, Michael Emrys said:

Yeah, I have kind of been playing around with this for a couple of months. If for instance I have a company of infantry and a (reduced) company of armor, I will do-locate the HQs of both companies, close enough together to be in shouting range of each other. I don't have anything definite to report yet on any improvement in sharing spotting information, but I will keep at it if for no other reason than I like the principle. Using the 2ics sounds good too.

Michael

Aye seems to work MIchael - effective if radio is the main means of connecting everyone. I don't know if you have CMBS but the company teams/combat groups were how this was done in CMBS. I think though due to how the C&C is modelled that was the easiest way to create company teams under one commander. I don't think (as yet) there is a way to come up with "on the fly" tasking and C&C with platoons from different units. hecne why it's good to ask for this to go on the list.

Anyways good to see you back and about

Cheery!

George