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WooHoo; new patch v3.12!  Got the new Battle Pack & put together a Quick Battle in France on late September.  Disappointed to find that the M8 HMC is still missing from the TO&E.  While the newly available M12 packs an awesome punch, it’s no substitute for the agile M8 as close support to the infantry.  So when will we ‘Patch the Patch’?   

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Hi tankgeezer. I can confirm, there are US armor formations  missing CM:BN 3.11 for quick battles.

priest, m8 scott, sometimes US paratroopers missing from quick battles due to missing formations in purchase screen.

 

There is already a whole thread on it my friend. After everyone looked for the problem I finally  found the source of the crashes. :D

Edited by user1000
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I may entirely mess up this explanation, but I vaguely recall M8 HMC being missing has something to do with the vehicle's odd location in the TO&E. Its neither fish-nor-foul. Its too much BANG for inclusion in infantry-only QBs and its too deeply embedded in infantry TO&E to show up in armor-only engagements. There's no easy game engine work-around to allow the thing to show up in one sort of QB and not in another, or to show up as an individual vehicle without it first being in the TO&E structure. I believe Steve made a conscious decision to pull the plug on M8 HMC because it was causing force balance issues in infantry QBs. I'm not 100% sure about that explanation but I think its reasonably close.

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That reasoning makes no sense, players should be able to decide what vehicles they or there opponent should be using in a QB. The whole point of a QB is trying out various force compositions against a real person or AI. There are hardly any scenarios involving the M8 anyway, let people use whatever they want in the TOE.

Edited by Raptorx7
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I may entirely mess up this explanation, but I vaguely recall M8 HMC being missing has something to do with the vehicle's odd location in the TO&E. Its neither fish-nor-foul. Its too much BANG for inclusion in infantry-only QBs and its too deeply embedded in infantry TO&E to show up in armor-only engagements. There's no easy game engine work-around to allow the thing to show up in one sort of QB and not in another, or to show up as an individual vehicle without it first being in the TO&E structure. I believe Steve made a conscious decision to pull the plug on M8 HMC because it was causing force balance issues in infantry QBs. I'm not 100% sure about that explanation but I think its reasonably close.

Yeah bad explanation, the M8 HMC is already listed in the manual and TO&E for the game on the website.

Edited by user1000
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I may entirely mess up this explanation, but I vaguely recall M8 HMC being missing has something to do with the vehicle's odd location in the TO&E. Its neither fish-nor-foul. Its too much BANG for inclusion in infantry-only QBs and its too deeply embedded in infantry TO&E to show up in armor-only engagements.

That strikes me as odd. Apparently they were common in cavalry TO&Es at this period of the war, so should at a minimum should make an appearance in the mech infantry list. And then before the appearance of the Sherman105, they might have shown up in armored formations, although I have no firm data on that. In any event, there is a work around in that both the M8 and the Sherman105 were apparently both used primarily in the indirect fire mode, so players can duplicate their effects by simply purchasing an appropriate artillery module. In fact, for me this constitutes the major reason for having a 75mm module in the game at all by this stage of the war, although there was still some use of the pack howitzer by for instance parachute divisions.

Michael

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Just checked the thread quoted above. That looked to me as an issue with the AI purchasing stuff that the player isn't entitled to see in his game if he hasn't activated the modules. That is (or was) an issue, I don't recall seeing it mentioned on the 3.12 changelog.

Does the M8 HMC appear in the TO&E when the force composition setting is an armour and infantry mix? Because if it does then MikeyD explanation makes a lot of sense. And it does indeed appear when creating scenarios.

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Just checked the thread quoted above. That looked to me as an issue with the AI purchasing stuff that the player isn't entitled to see in his game if he hasn't activated the modules. That is (or was) an issue, I don't recall seeing it mentioned on the 3.12 changelog.

Does the M8 HMC appear in the TO&E when the force composition setting is an armour and infantry mix? Because if it does then MikeyD explanation makes a lot of sense. And it does indeed appear when creating scenarios.

If they fix it or not, determines if I continue to buy modules... :D

Edited by user1000
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That strikes me as odd. Apparently they were common in cavalry TO&Es at this period of the war, so should at a minimum should make an appearance in the mech infantry list. And then before the appearance of the Sherman105, they might have shown up in armored formations, although I have no firm data on that. In any event, there is a work around in that both the M8 and the Sherman105 were apparently both used primarily in the indirect fire mode, so players can duplicate their effects by simply purchasing an appropriate artillery module. In fact, for me this constitutes the major reason for having a 75mm module in the game at all by this stage of the war, although there was still some use of the pack howitzer by for instance parachute divisions.

Michael

I think you're right about them being replaced by Sherman 105s and possibly the Priests too. However, they were still regularly used in Cavalry Squadrons as per this source:

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/cavalry.aspx

I'm not at home but can someone check the Cavalry Squadron OOB? Or does CMBN only have Cavalry troops?

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I'm not at home but can someone check the Cavalry Squadron OOB? Or does CMBN only have Cavalry troops?

I just looked and although there are two flavors of cavalry squadron present in the game (armored division and independent), neither of them list the M8 HMC. The only vehicles a cursory examination revealed were Jeeps and M8 ACs, plus the occasional halftrack. I think this represents what I was saying about the HMC only being used in the indirect role. I couldn't find them in the single vehicle list either even though I do have the VP. This is in the QB menu; somebody posted that they are available in the scenario editor, but I don't have any experience with that. Otherwise, a realistic workaround is to purchase a light artillery module.

Michael

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I just looked and although there are two flavors of cavalry squadron present in the game (armored division and independent), neither of them list the M8 HMC. The only vehicles a cursory examination revealed were Jeeps and M8 ACs, plus the occasional halftrack. I think this represents what I was saying about the HMC only being used in the indirect role. I couldn't find them in the single vehicle list either even though I do have the VP. This is in the QB menu; somebody posted that they are available in the scenario editor, but I don't have any experience with that. Otherwise, a realistic workaround is to purchase a light artillery module.

Michael

OK, I checked in the editor and they are indeed there for both the independent and the armored version. Each troop has an assault platoon with 2 M8 HMCs, a halftrack and HQ.

The version in the Quick Battles is missing the entire assault platoon. It was always my understanding that these were intended to be assault vehicles, i.e. direct infantry support, not artillery. However, I have no real data to back this up. But why call it an assault platoon if it's going to be in the indirect role?

Also, the Quick Battle version of the Calvary Squadrons are missing the entire company of M5 Stuarts. Why leave this out of the QB versions? This makes no sense.

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The version in the Quick Battles is missing the entire assault platoon. It was always my understanding that these were intended to be assault vehicles, i.e. direct infantry support, not artillery. However, I have no real data to back this up. But why call it an assault platoon if it's going to be in the indirect role?

Beats me.

Also, the Quick Battle version of the Calvary Squadrons are missing the entire company of M5 Stuarts. Why leave this out of the QB versions? This makes no sense.

I agree. I had forgotten about the M5s, but I had noticed their absence long ago. In fact, the whole TO&E for cavalry squadrons is rather wonky according to my sources.

Michael 

Edited to add: My main source for information about the Armored Cavalry is Harry Yeide's book Steeds of Steel: A History of American Mechanized Cavalry in World War II, which is also available in a Kindle version. His book gives detailed and precise TO&E information for the cavalry at each stage of its evolution. I might also mention that Harry has been an occasional contributor to these pages, though it seems to me that his absence has now become too long.

Edited by Michael Emrys
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  • 3 weeks later...

Here's an odd thing or two. I checked the Armored Recon Battalion in the QB section of CMFI where it does list the company of light tanks. The strange thing is that is also shows every recon platoon having an M7 Priest. I may be misremembering, but I can't recall the Priest being part of the Cavalry line-up, at least not in 1943. Once again, I can't find the M8 HMC at all.

Michael

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