CMRT Campaign - Kampfgruppe "von Schroif"

[Erwin]

Am in UK right now and have to say, I canna understand some of the regional (or immigrant) accents.  They need subtitles.  It's rare to hear what used to be called "the Queen's English".  (It's the same in the US.  Some southern and urban ghetto accents are incomprehensible.)

Edited November 1, 2017 by Erwin

[Hister]

Yes, fully comprehensable. 😋 Where I come from its only about 2 milion speakers of my language but we have around 50 dialects here which differ so much between each other that you could easily not understand a speaker talking in his dialect from the other side of our (tiny) country. Pretty crazy eh!? 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Hister

[Ales Dvorak]

5 hours ago, Hister said:

 Where I come from its only about 2 milion speakers of my language but we have around 50 dialects here which differ so much between each other that you could easily not understand a speaker talking in his dialect from the other side of our (tiny) country. Pretty crazy eh!? 

True.

[Warts 'n' all]

11 hours ago, Erwin said:

Am in UK right now and have to say, I canna understand some of the regional (or immigrant) accents.  They need subtitles.  It's rare to hear what used to be called "the Queen's English".  (It's the same in the US.  Some southern and urban ghetto accents are incomprehensible.)

Interestingly enough, if you watch University Challenge, hardly anyone speaks with a regional accent. Whereas, if you watch Rab C Nesbett it's only the local Asian shopkeeper who does speak "the Queen's English".

[Erwin]

Who is "Rab C Nesbett"?

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Rab C. Nesbitt is a  cult comedy character.  Think of a more aggressive repulsive and alcoholic version of Archie Bunker and you'll be on the right lines.  You are doing very well if you can understand his accent.  Enjoy!!

 

[Erwin]

Now I remember...  he's one of the regional newsreaders at the Beeb these days.

[George MC]

He! Interesting off-topic discussion. Loved Rab C when it came out. "Still Game" a worth predecessor!

 

[Hister]

I managed to tackle the first half of the 1st mission and am rolling towards the Objective Prignitz now. I have lost some men but no important person luckily. 1st Platoon has lost the most men. One halftrack has it's radio destroyed but all other vehicles are OK. 

Enjoying it a lot so far. 

Edit: I did reload due to me pushing the lead tank too far to the enemies flank trying to mow down the fleeing enemy, parked it in front of one as of yet not cleared building and got my tracks immobilized. Decided a reload was in order.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by Hister

[George MC]

Hi @Hister

Nice one  Glad you are enjoying it.

Just keep an eye on grenadier casualties and don't let them mount up too much... Good work on letting the tanks do some of the heavy lifting, but as you found out keep your grenadiers close! Although like you when I've played this I've done more than a few mission 'tactical' reloads!

[Hister]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

Hi @Hister

Nice one  Glad you are enjoying it.

Just keep an eye on grenadier casualties and don't let them mount up too much... Good work on letting the tanks do some of the heavy lifting, but as you found out keep your grenadiers close! Although like you when I've played this I've done more than a few mission 'tactical' reloads!

Yeah, I wonder if this one can be finished without reload cheating though. OK, if you have done it then my conscious is clean. Objective Prignitz has been secured but by now I would be down to only 2 tanks left (plus one halftrack heavily messed up) if not for reloading. I suck. 

Would a very good player playing this for the first time be able to not have any or only one tank casualties? Did it happen when people tested this for you? 

I realized yesterday my grenadiers don't have any antitank capabilities so it's really down to my Mark IV's to do the heavy anti vehicle and ATG work. 

 

I played until 4:30 in the morning and only finished playing it when my 3rd tank was hit (well, it would have been the 3rd if not for the reload span I did, he he). Just one more turn button was on to the bewilderment of my fiancee.   

[Erwin]

If you still have a fiancée, you're not playing the game properly.  

[George MC]

1 hour ago, Hister said:

Yeah, I wonder if this one can be finished without reload cheating though. OK, if you have done it then my conscious is clean. Objective Prignitz has been secured but by now I would be down to only 2 tanks left (plus one halftrack heavily messed up) if not for reloading. I suck. 

Would a very good player playing this for the first time be able to not have any or only one tank casualties? Did it happen when people tested this for you? 

I realized yesterday my grenadiers don't have any antitank capabilities so it's really down to my Mark IV's to do the heavy anti vehicle and ATG work. 

 

I played until 4:30 in the morning and only finished playing it when my 3rd tank was hit (well, it would have been the 3rd if not for the reload span I did, he he). Just one more turn button was on to the bewilderment of my fiancee.   

It can be done - but I tend to get impatient especially towards the end of a mission and that's when I lose stuff due to carelessness. I've played it through without any reloads (after some earlier attempts) but found the later missions tough, albeit doable. However, it is not an easy campaign nor would I class any of the missions as 'easy'. And you have to be on your game when it comes to combined arms tactics. So defo one for the more experienced CM player - assuming reloads are kept to a minimum/none.

Your panzer grenadiers have panzerfausts but no long range AT capability - so yes, your armour will have to take up the slack in that respect. Your panzer grenadiers mortars though are very, very useful. Just a shame they don't work when in the SPW. One thing about engine 4 I do wish was carried over into CMRT.

You'll find the biggest threat your armour and SPW face are PAK, just like in the real deal. Armour is actually pretty easy to take care off. PAK tend to stay hidden till the last moment...

[Erwin]

"I tend to get impatient especially towards the end of a mission and that's when I lose stuff due to carelessness."

Yup...  that is the biggest problem for me 2.  One starts to suffer mental "combat mission fatigue" after a couple of hours.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Erwin

[Hister]

51 minutes ago, George MC said:

It can be done - but I tend to get impatient especially towards the end of a mission and that's when I lose stuff due to carelessness.

Must have been the same in real life for commanders although on a smaller scale I would presume. 

 

53 minutes ago, George MC said:

I've played it through without any reloads (after some earlier attempts) but found the later missions tough, albeit doable. However, it is not an easy campaign nor would I class any of the missions as 'easy'. And you have to be on your game when it comes to combined arms tactics. So defo one for the more experienced CM player - assuming reloads are kept to a minimum/none.

Would love to see a let's play youtube video covering this campaign by a seasoned CM player and observe his tactics to learn a thing or two.. or three.     

 

1 hour ago, George MC said:

Your panzer grenadiers have panzerfausts but no long range AT capability - so yes, your armour will have to take up the slack in that respect. Your panzer grenadiers mortars though are very, very useful. Just a shame they don't work when in the SPW. One thing about engine 4 I do wish was carried over into CMRT.

My current 1st mission foot grunts don't have any panzerfausts on them - only my tanks have big guns capable of putting out enemy armor (commander's halftracks do have a nice 20mm gun which can shread armoured cars). Or do halftracks carry them panzerfausts and I need to acquire them? Gotta check, I completely forgot about that! Edit: Yeah, I can acquire 2 panzerfausts from all my halftracks. Valuable assets these two... 

 

2 hours ago, George MC said:

You'll find the biggest threat your armour and SPW face are PAK, just like in the real deal. Armour is actually pretty easy to take care off. PAK tend to stay hidden till the last moment...

Yeah, I lost my 3rd tank to a PAK. Will reload of course.  What tactics do you employ against them? Send (poor) scouts in the exposed area where PAKs can have their field of fire and if nothing shoots it is supposedly save to cross? 

 

 

[Erwin]

It's a rare scenario where it doesn't pay to send inf scouts ahead of one's armor to locate enemy AT assets.  It's SOP to locate and kill enemy AT b4 exposing your tanks.

Clever designers of course try and make that SOP very hard to carry out. 

[Hister]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

It's a rare scenario where it doesn't pay to send inf scouts ahead of one's armor to locate enemy AT assets.  It's SOP to locate and kill enemy AT b4 exposing your tanks.

Clever designers of course try and make that SOP very hard to carry out. 

OK, will employ scouts more. Time constraints and every man counts approach makes this harder though. 

[Erwin]

Generally in all CM2 titles, whether WW2 or modern, it seems a good idea to send out several 2-man teams along your potential avenues of advance.  The question I puzzle over is whether to divide off all one's scouts from one platoon.  (ie: Every squad in that platoon is now down two men, while all other platoons remain at full strength.)  Or, divide off one scout team from each of the company's platoons (assuming you have a company +).

The next puzzle is whether to send the remainder of each "scout-divided" squad about 50m-100m behind its two man scout team in order to support it (and also maybe to spot what is shooting at the scouts who are usually suppressed quickly).  Or whether the two man team is on its own, and good luck to it.   

It is probably advisable however, to send the scout teams in twos - so if one team is KIA, the "buddy" team may see what killed it.

It doesn't work 100% of the time, however, my experience is that the ideal tactic in all CM2 games is to use the inf to spot enemy AT assets, which are then killed by one's arty or airpower.  Only then does one commit one's armor.

[Hister]

Superb advice. Will follow your lead Erwin.

[George MC]

Erwin’s comments are useful info, and an approach I’d take in close terrain. However what I’ve struggled with in the past is how to recce over more open terrain, or where there is a great deal of real estate between your forces and the objective and where this approach will take forever and an age to accomplish or where MG fire from long range enemy MGs can pretty much stall this type of recce..

I think that any intel you get at the start of the mission is key, as, hopefully, this may well give you an indication of the direction the enemy are in, maybe what sort of force and the context of your mission – are you conducting a move to contact in a  hyperdynamic fluid combat situation or a set piece attack against a well-fortified and dug in enemy, or any degree thereof. This is the key part of the recce puzzle in my view as this will inform your whole approach for at least the initial stages of the mission. The key part of conducting your movement to contact is using the terrain to your advantage.

Also when it comes to recce there are several options I use most often and a few variations around them.

‘Eyes on’ – this can be achieved from cover and/or distance and when done can ensure your ‘spotters’ or ‘spotter’ are concealed.

‘Recce by fire’ – in this approach you are looking to persuade the enemy to either unmask their position by engaging back, or to force them to relocate. This can be a wee bit risky when it comes to direct fire especially if the enemy have assets that can drill your armour from long range. With direct fire it works better if you can stand off and use the long-range shooting capability of armoured assets. However worth minding it can also be used (assuming you have enough arty assets) by FOOs (arty spotters) or equivalent e.g. platoon HQ calling in mortar fire.

So if I’m attacking/moving across open terrain the first thing I’ll do is scout out terrain on the map and check at what point my units are most likely to come into range from hostile fire. Most times your set-up zone (hopefully!) will be out of initial contact, so you just have to slowly move your lead elements up and into position where they can get ‘eyes on’ the next bit of terrain. So Erwin’s description of moving infantry scouts forward works well. I’ve a slightly different take on this (call it another option) I tend to play armoured based missions more, so my lead units are often at least two tanks with others keeping watch. You can move armour into a ‘turret down’ position which with the commander unbuttoned means he can spot without the tank being spotted. The key here is staying put for a while allowing your commander time to survey the area. SPW troops with everyone unbuttoned can do the same.

Once I’ve checked the ground ahead out I’ve several options. This next bit is where the work you’ve done pre hitting the ‘go button’ will reap benefits. You should have at least a vague idea where your enemy is lurking.

So if no immediate contact is expected I’d have one element move fast from cover to cover and ensure I have other units in overwatch. If I’m moving into where I think the enemy may have LOF then I’ll consider how to neutralise any possible enemy fire OR mask my approach.

If dealing with PAKs then MGs targeting likely spots as suppressing fire work very well. You’ve loads of MG ammo especially on tanks and SPW so use it! Mind you are banking that the enemy PAK will hold their fire until the last minute, so this approach assumes you are engaging at long range say 1000m+ and from hull down positions so if anyone opens fire back you can back out of fire.

For masking then you might wish to cover possible enemy flanking spots or your approach using smoke. You've got a few possible options for using long range smoke – in this campaign, your Panzer IVs have lot’s of smoke shells; your SPW cannon have smoke and your mortars. So I’d suggest using smoke to mask your flanks/front if the possible enemy firing positions are numerous and you’ve no hope of neutralising all of them using MG fire.

As and when the terrain/LOS/LOF becomes more complex with close range ambushes more likely then this approach relies more on dismounts (as described by Erwin) going ahead and checking approaches.

Hope this short outline helps for some other options – particularly for using on larger maps with mech heavy units.

Edited November 5, 2017 by George MC
spelling

[Erwin]

All very good points.

Re: "I tend to play armoured based missions more..."  Me too.  I much prefer that or combined arms to infantry-centric missions.

I agree with George if you have to cross 500 meters or more of open land.  But, while that is more common in CMSF, the European titles rarely provide LOS over that distance unless the map is very large - which is rare in CM2. 

if one is faced with more terrain to traverse than can be traveled by an inf unit in the time allowed, Ideally, one wants to use recon vehicles/transports to "as safely as possible using any available cover" to FAST transit an open area to reach the next (hopefully protected) cover.  At that point the best thing (usually) is to dismount the recon unit and have them recon on foot. 

Unbuttoned and turret down may be good.  However, are we certain that turret down/unbuttoned gives better LOS than a standing or kneeling inf unit(?)

The main point is that needlessly exposing a vehicle just to see what is out there is usually wasteful.  (I hate losing a vehicle merely to draw AT fire.)

 

[George MC]

1 minute ago, Erwin said:

All very good points.

Re: "I tend to play armoured based missions more..."  Me too.  I much prefer that or combined arms to infantry-centric missions.

I agree with George if you have to cross 500 meters or more of open land.  But, while that is more common in CMSF, the European titles rarely provide LOS over that distance unless the map is very large - which is rare in CM2. 

if one is faced with more terrain to traverse than can be traveled by an inf unit in the time allowed, Ideally, one wants to use recon vehicles/transports to "as safely as possible using any available cover" to FAST transit an open area to reach the next (hopefully protected) cover.  At that point the best thing (usually) is to dismount the recon unit and have them recon on foot. 

Unbuttoned and turret down may be good.  However, are we certain that turret down/unbuttoned gives better LOS than a standing or kneeling inf unit(?)

The main point is that needlessly exposing a vehicle just to see what is out there is usually wasteful.  (I hate losing a vehicle merely to draw AT fire.)

 

I prefer playing large maps in CMRT so 500m is pretty close range. In western Europe you'd struggle to get ranges above and beyond that in RL - there is often too much stuff cluttering up line of sight.

In recent scenarios I've been playing I've 2000m engagement ranges with most tank fire taking place at 1200m.

The trick with using armour is not to use em as targets. You can always dismount a crew (and I do this a lot) to take a look (just make sure you are certain there are no enemy infantry lurking just ahead...

If the unbuttoned vehicle commander has binoculars then yes they'll spot just as well, although you only have one pair of eyes spotting with binos.

Mind any player worth their salt will not expose an AT asset to plink at some infantry scouts. You have to get the scouts really close to spot a hidden AT asset and then, any player (or scenario designer laying out the AI units) will ensure that the AT assets have dismounts guarding their perimeter. I've not said I don;t use infantry scouts just I'm really particular where and I how I use them.

In this campaign (von Schroif) your infantry are pretty precious so potentially using em as targets is and itself wasteful. In this case I'm all for recce by fire on possible enemy locations. I don't need to lose a scout team to tell me where key terrain locations are cos, a/ I've ID this terrain at the start b/ assume if I have ID key terrain so has the enemy, so I assume they are there and use area fire accordingly. Or avoid that terrain and the zones it covers.

[Hister]

I've read this thread fully and got a much better idea how to approach the first mission using my available units.

I wasn't using the two available scouts and the sniper at all thinking they are a too valuable asset to squander in the first mission already as only attracting fire props. Knowing scouts are there just for the first mission this makes much of a difference... 

I haven't finished the first mission yet but I'm sure it will be a draw since I employed all my units against the enemy thinking that if I kill all the enemy that then them spotting my units won't count, lol. 

George MC, have you finished that other campaign that you had in the works after this one?

[George MC]

14 hours ago, Hister said:

I've read this thread fully and got a much better idea how to approach the first mission using my available units.

I wasn't using the two available scouts and the sniper at all thinking they are a too valuable asset to squander in the first mission already as only attracting fire props. Knowing scouts are there just for the first mission this makes much of a difference... 

I haven't finished the first mission yet but I'm sure it will be a draw since I employed all my units against the enemy thinking that if I kill all the enemy that then them spotting my units won't count, lol.

 

Hi Hister

I did give the player a couple of 'Red Shirt' scout units in the first mission - just to ease them in!

Aye the discussion re recce is an interesting one and full of variables. There is no 'one size fits all' approach. As a designer, I'm aware players often like to lead with scouts...

Hence there will be a counter in place where it counts... BTW snipers are excellent spotters - you don't have to get within firing range - the fact they have scopes and binos is their key strength I think. So keeping this team out of harm was a good move - you'll find them very useful in future missions so treat em right!

Re the victory conditions - yup how this works in CM for victory conditions if the enemy spot a marked unit they get points (much like how they would if they 'killed' the unit).Does not matter if you kill them after they spot you. This reflects these Soviet units as recce in their own right. Their job is to get intel on where a German attack is coming from and what strength.

I'm still working on the other campaign - taking a bit longer now my wife and I have a wee baby. I've way less free time than I used to have. The campaign is coming along though.

Cheery!

George

[Erwin]

"BTW snipers are excellent spotters - you don't have to get within firing range - the fact they have scopes and binos is their key strength I think."

Yes, I forgot to mention that.

"if the enemy spot a marked unit they get points..."

Thanks for mentioning that.  After playing CM2 since it first came out, I did not know that the game features this!!  Amazing.  (However, am not aware of any scenarios or campaign missions where the object is merely to observe and spot as opposed to kill.)