Russian army under equipped?

[Kinophile]

8 hours ago, shift8 said:

Once established, portions of nations states cannot legitimately secede. Unless there was foul play in the initial formation. Once self-determined: permanently determined. Otherwise the laws of the nation state would have no logical efficacy, and the state would continue to micro secede until you had anarchy. 

Actually you're totally wrong, and very uninformed. They can.  Try telling that to Catalonia. It's a human rights to decide your regions future. 

The key is secede PEACEFULLY.

Scotland held a a referendum and peacefully voted to stay part of the UK. Now that the UK has list Ursaki mind and voted to leave the EU,  where as SC thank voted heavily in favour of staying in the EU,  it's very likely that there will be a second referendum. Weather it succeeds is wide open,  but it can be held,  the Scots have the natural right to hold it,  and by golly the UK had better let them or there could quickly be an escalation to Maidan-esqe protests.and it's not like the Rangers and Celtics don't know how to fight..  :-)

Catalonia is well along its own path to secede/regional autonomy from Spain,  but they face a tougher prospect as legally (through laws specifically put in place by Madrid)  they can't even hold a referendum on holding a referendum! They can poll,  but it has no legal status,  according to Madrid. But that's not stopping them. They're pretty damn committed. 

A good contrast is Northern Ireland. There,  the idea of holding a referendum on joining the Republic would cause a gmstorm of violence and bombings. For it to even be mooted the current generation will need to essentially die off, as the pro-UK of the population are very determined to stay. This is a situation where there is a strong popular sentiment against leaving,  as opposed to laws/edictsemplaced and  enforced by an outside,  far off government. 

Now,  I don't know myself,  but I think secession is legally banned in the US? But the flip side is that there is strong local/state autonomy, which provides a release of pressure.

In the case of Catalonia they do not have that autonomy. Scotland now has much more control over its affairs,  through Devolution, but still -  independence is desired. 

I'd vote that if a Government has managed to piss off an entire region of people the  it's doing something profoundly wrong and needs to pause and reassess. 

O

Now,  this sounds like a vote in favour of the Separatists in the Donbass,  and it would be,  if they were actually separatists. But Russia manufactured, inflamed and prolonged the unrest to cover an invasion. Which moves things out of the realm of political discourse a la Scotland/Catalonia and into preventing an illegal,  foreign agitated seccession and foreign invasion.

Which is the whole rationale for the ATO. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by kinophile

[Sublime]

Waiting on your reply Hattori.

Kino youre from Ireland? What county? My family emograted 100 yrs ago right now from county cork and dublin respectively

[Kinophile]

Co.Cork, boi! 

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, kinophile said:

Actually you're totally wrong, and very uninformed. They can.  Try telling that to Catalonia. It's a human rights to decide your regions future. 

I agree that the right to self determination is not something that is conditional to previous generations' decisions and/or circumstances.  "What's done is done" is Russia's rationale for Crimea being a part of Russia.  Their arguments, quite literally, amount to... "we stole it fair and square, there is to be no discussion".  That's not right on any level.

Quote

The key is secede PEACEFULLY.

That is one of the major goals, but I do not think it is the most important.  The most important is for the people to (more or less) be allowed to decide for themselves what is or isn't the right thing to do.  And here is where Russia, once again, is to blame for the situation in Donbas.

For generations Russians have been conditioned to listen to Moscow's messaging and to distrust all else.  This is an extremely warped mindset because Moscow's messaging is never honest when it comes to the things that matter.  Worse, Moscow itself is one of the worst stewards of the Russian people that a people can have.  Which is why it lies so much, so regularly, and so loudly while at the same time putting so much effort into drowning out competing messages and those who promote them.

This is relevant to Ukraine because the ethnic Russian areas of the country have been bombarded by anti-western propaganda for decades.  There was hardly a letup since the fall of the Soviet Union.  After a brief lull in the 1990s, Putin has been consistently year over year has been increasing this message to the Russian people.

Because Putin understands the dynamics that led to the original Orange Revolution and it's follow up, the anti-Western and pro-Russian propaganda aimed into Russian speaking Ukraine was cranked up long before 2013.  The basic message boiled down to "the West is out to get you, only Russia can protect you".  While Yanukovych was in power they kept the anti-Ukrainian messaging to a minimum, but as soon as Yanukovych was ousted the anti-Ukrainian propaganda was turned up to 11.  Soviet methodology to control people is alive and well in today's Russia, that is for sure.

What this gets to is that yeah... a large chunk of Crimean and Donbas Russians fear the West and think the current change of government is all bad, while a the same time believing that Russia has their best interests at heart.  This mindset is NOT because the ethnic Russians were able to freely and fairly weigh competing messages.  Russia deliberately hindered this and therefore "tipped the scales" towards it's own agenda.

This in turn means that although a significant chunk of ethnic Russians in Ukraine would rather be influenced by Russia, it is because they've been conditioned by Russia to think that way.  The rest of Ukraine, including MANY ethnic Russians, have evaluated their options more openly and have chosen to break with Russia.

Crimeans were not only denied a right to determine their own fate freely by vote (i.e. it was rigged), they were denied the right to determine for themselves how to think about themselves.  Which is why so many so predictably acted out of fear in February 2014.  Russia worked very hard to make sure that would be the reaction and then worked hard to suppress any form of Crimean discussion free from Russia's influence before the horribly rushed referendum farce.

Bottomline...

Quote

Now,  this sounds like a vote in favour of the Separatists in the Donbass,  and it would be,  if they were actually separatists. But Russia manufactured, inflamed and prolonged the unrest to cover an invasion. Which moves things out of the realm of political discourse a la Scotland/Catalonia and into preventing an illegal,  foreign agitated seccession and foreign invasion.

What is going on in Ukraine is not now, nor has it ever been, a "civil war".  The ethnic Russians have never been denied basic Human Rights by the new government, therefore their claim to need separation is non-existent from the start.  They have been conditioned by a foreign state to think in a way that benefits that foreign state, not themselves.  They did not explore any peaceful option for whatever grievances they had in mind, real or imagined.  They did not even start an armed uprising since that was all Russia's doing (Girkin being the tip of the spear).  They are merely pawns for Russia to play with for it's own purposes.

This is a war of aggression, pure and simple.  The only difference between a traditional war and this war is Russia denies it is fighting this war at all.  The denials are because Russia knows, better than anybody else, that it has no moral or legal defense to justify its actions.

Steve

[hattori]

Many of you are ripping Vlad a new one for Russia's actions in Ukraine -- I understand, I also am utterly opposed to what they are doing.  At the same time though, it is very hypocritical to get as aggressive as you guys are getting considering how illegal and wrong the 2003 Iraq invasion was.  Utter chaos in the area now, infrastructure and economy totally destroyed, 500 000 Iraqi civilians dead, and a power vacuum that allowed Iran and Sunni extremist movements to rise to the top.  Guys, the west is far from perfect, and I can see from Vlad's point of view how ridiculous it is that America can do these things, and then freak out when Russia does, especially in his mind that his cause is far more justified.

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Waiting on your reply Hattori.

I didn't notice anything worth commenting on, but it is also hard to parse through your messages when you start getting lazy with your english (and it's your first language?  I know when you put the effort in your english is as good as everyone else's here).  When it's really bad, a lot of time I don't bother reading it now.

[Splinty]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Waiting on your reply Hattori.

Kino youre from Ireland? What county? My family emograted 100 yrs ago right now from county cork and dublin respectively

My Dad was born and raised in Ballina, and most of his immediate family still lives in Limerick.

[Kinophile]

19 minutes ago, Splinty said:

My Dad was born and raised in Ballina, and most of his immediate family still lives in Limerick.

Ballina? Poor lad. Well,  we all have a cross to bear...  :-P

Edited September 15, 2016 by kinophile

[Battlefront.com]

27 minutes ago, hattori said:

Many of you are ripping Vlad a new one for Russia's actions in Ukraine -- I understand, I also am utterly opposed to what they are doing.

I don't see it that way.  I see it holding Vlad, rather politely, accountable for his viewpoint which skirts rather big chunks of facts.  Like the degree of Russian state involvement in Donbas.

Quote

At the same time though, it is very hypocritical to get as aggressive as you guys are getting considering how illegal and wrong the 2003 Iraq invasion was.  Utter chaos in the area now, infrastructure and economy totally destroyed, 500 000 Iraqi civilians dead, and a power vacuum that allowed Iran and Sunni extremist movements to rise to the top.  

This is called "Whataboutism" and it is a tactic used to deflect attention away from whatever is being discussed.  In this thread we are talking about what Russia is doing to Ukraine, not what the US has done to Haiti or a dozen other places or what Great Britain did in the 1700s to set so much of the stage for a screwed up world today.  They are relevant to other points to discuss, but they are NOT relevant in any way, shape, or form to what Russia is doing and therefore dragging in the skeletons of other people's closets is counter productive.

Quote

Guys, the west is far from perfect, and I can see from Vlad's point of view how ridiculous it is that America can do these things, and then freak out when Russia does, especially in his mind that his cause is far more justified.

This is factually incorrect.  The Whataboutism lines of argument have dragged these things into the conversation many times already and the general response is "yeah, the West isn't perfect and it screws up a a lot of things for a lot of people.  Since it's not relevant to what Russia is doing in Ukraine, let's focus on what is".  If you want to have a general comparison between the good/bad things that the West does and compare it to the good/bad things Russia does, that's fine... but it's a different discussion.

And please... let's not confuse a poorly thought out, poorly executed, legally problematic international war against a long established genocidal tyrant (Iraq) with an outright unilateral war of aggression against a functioning state which has zero legal standing, zero moral standing, and zero admission of responsibility by the ONLY one responsible for the war happening in the first place (Russia's war on Ukraine).  They aren't even in the same ballpark. 

Don't feed into Whataboutism.  It isn't a productive direction to head in.

Steve

P.S. as someone who predicted Putin would invade Ukraine the minute Ukraine changed governments, I for one did not "freak out" when Russia invaded.  I expected it.

[hattori]

I will disagree with you on this one.  I've followed this thread for a while.  The discussion is good sometimes, and you and others make great points, or get me to look at things slightly differently.  However, I do think the last few pages of comments have been particularly attacking Vlad above the normal.  I'm not trying to deflect any attention, I'm just pointing out before you aggressively attack Russia for it's actions, remember your country has also been really brutal.  Keep it more civil and nice (not you specifically, but others), and I won't think of you being too hypocritical.  

Like I said, from my perspective, I disagree with Vlad about most things he says, but I can see where he is coming from as a Russian patriot.  He sounds just like an American patriot just years after 2003 Iraq, refusing to admit wrong or apologize for illegally screwing a country over.

Edited September 15, 2016 by hattori

[Battlefront.com]

9 minutes ago, hattori said:

I will disagree with you on this one.  I've followed this thread for a while.  The discussion is good sometimes, and you and others make great points, or get me to look at things slightly differently.  However, I do think the last few pages of comments have been particularly attacking Vlad above the normal.

It's a usual phase of debate when there's heels being dug in.  I'm watching it to make sure it doesn't cross the line into personal attack.  So far it has not.

Quote

 I'm not trying to deflect any attention, I'm just pointing out before you aggressively attack Russia for it's actions, remember your country has also been really brutal.

Brutal, stupid, counter productive, short sighted... yes, that describes pretty much every nation on the face of this Earth at some point or another to a degree or another.  Which is important to keep in mind, but not relevant to holding Russia accountable for its specific brutal, stupid, counter productive, and short sighted behavior towards Ukraine.

Quote

Like I said, from my perspective, I disagree with Vlad about most things he says, but I can see where he is coming from as a Russian patriot.  He sounds just like an American patriot just years after 2003 Iraq, refusing to admit wrong or apologize for illegally screwing a country over.

Right, and they were challenged and/or ridiculed for ignoring facts by people like me as well.  Blind patriotism should always be challenged because it must be kept in check.  Which is what is going on here.

Russia is waging an outright unilateral war of aggression against Ukraine against generally accepted legal and moral principles of statehood.  Which is why Russia is lying so thoroughly about what it is doing.  It knows, better than any of us, that this is a war to keep Russian elite in positions of power, not about helping the "oppressed" ethnic Russians in Ukraine.  What the US and its allies did or didn't do in Iraq isn't even remotely relevant.  Whataboutism is a tool of distraction, not a means of better understanding of a particular topic.

Steve

[hattori]

It would be a tool of distraction if I was bringing up Iraq as a way to justify Russia's actions -- I am not.  I am bringing it up because people are starting to go crazy attacking Vlad for Russia's actions.  As a Russian patriot, he has no choice in his head to defend his homeland.  Trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of time and effort.  

I'm sorry, but when I start reading, " but it won't stop those kleptocratic c#nts in the Kremlin from trying.", " Your nation is a corrupt autocratic bully", " Congratulations on your Hitler-esque justification", that's starting to really cross a line, especially when it is directed at one person.  This adds nothing to the conversation, and is actually a bigger distraction than anything else.  

[Kinophile]

To be accurate,  my comment was directed at the Russian government, not him personally. 

Fairly specific in the wording (and backed up by fact).... 

But you're correct,  it's still bringing the tone down. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by kinophile

[Splinty]

1 hour ago, kinophile said:

Ballina? Poor lad. Well,  we all have a cross to bear...  :-P

He was born in 1918, so things may have changed a bit since then.

[Kinophile]

Less than you'd think! 

[Splinty]

34 minutes ago, kinophile said:

Less than you'd think! 

I heard they got flush toilets and electricity not too long ago!

[Sublime]

3 hours ago, hattori said:

Many of you are ripping Vlad a new one for Russia's actions in Ukraine -- I understand, I also am utterly opposed to what they are doing.  At the same time though, it is very hypocritical to get as aggressive as you guys are getting considering how illegal and wrong the 2003 Iraq invasion was.  Utter chaos in the area now, infrastructure and economy totally destroyed, 500 000 Iraqi civilians dead, and a power vacuum that allowed Iran and Sunni extremist movements to rise to the top.  Guys, the west is far from perfect, and I can see from Vlad's point of view how ridiculous it is that America can do these things, and then freak out when Russia does, especially in his mind that his cause is far more justified.

I didn't notice anything worth commenting on, but it is also hard to parse through your messages when you start getting lazy with your english (and it's your first language?  I know when you put the effort in your english is as good as everyone else's here).  When it's really bad, a lot of time I don't bother reading it now.

 

I hardly see how you didnt see anything to respond to. You asked a question i directly responded. Probably just not the way you wanted since it seems evident you assumed Id never seen a foreign war film let alone speak spanish almost fluently, been born and lived for 6 yrs overseas in what was West Germany, and love foreign films ( Battle of Algiers? German onez I mentioned ) especially a Russian one and when I named several and then the German ones I referred including an especially obscure one... you decided not to respond. Ironic. Just like..i f I seem so American sometimes its because I AM AN AMERICAN.

2. Why would you be surprised I didnt comment on wiki when Ive never posted on there.

3. I prefer German war films. Die Brucke. Das Boot  Stalingrad.

Russian ones. Come and see was good. The Soviet 60s one on Borodino Ive seen parts of. The one abt the company that goes to Afghan? So so. Stalingrad? Awful. White Tiger? Lousy. Not too impressive.

Hattori yes what the US did was illegal in Iraq however Ukraine didnt gas its own people start wars with neigbbors and finally we never denied being there.

P.s

Oh god another grammar nazi. Im in the lower just above poverty income bracket. I post on a cell. I have as much right to post as anyone else here and my grammar or posting is hardly bad even on my worst day. And you can always add me to the ignore list if you please. Seriously im not having a repeat of last years chiding because I dont type in perfect oxford english on a message board. If ppl dnt like it then dont read my posts. My grammar is hardly unreadable.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Sublime

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, hattori said:

It would be a tool of distraction if I was bringing up Iraq as a way to justify Russia's actions -- I am not.  I am bringing it up because people are starting to go crazy attacking Vlad for Russia's actions.  As a Russian patriot, he has no choice in his head to defend his homeland.  Trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of time and effort.  

Though it shouldn't be.  I am an American and I am proud to be an American.  My country comes under a lot of scrutiny because it is an "activist" state by its nature, as well as pretty much the first place people in need look to solve their own problems.  We take flak from one group saying we need to keep out, then we take flak from another group that we're not interfering enough.  I've traveled around this world of ours a little and lived abroad for a bit.  I think it is fair to say that I've had no shortage of people saying bad things about my country, often times without proper context of even factual basis.  I am perfectly comfortable accepting factual based arguments which highlight the fact that my country is far from perfect even though (by choice) I do not want to live anywhere else on Earth (though there are some very acceptable alternatives out there).  In fact, I feel defending my country "right or wrong" is anti-patriotic. 

What I'm saying here is I know it is totally possible to both love ones' country and discuss it critically when there is justification for such a discussion.   I have debated with people and concluded that they are a "waste of time" to debate with, and in my opinion Vladimir is not one of them.  He's having difficulties accepting much of what is being said about his country, but he is still engaged and behaving admirably.  Don't sell him short.

1 hour ago, hattori said:

I'm sorry, but when I start reading, " but it won't stop those kleptocratic c#nts in the Kremlin from trying.", " Your nation is a corrupt autocratic bully", " Congratulations on your Hitler-esque justification", that's starting to really cross a line, especially when it is directed at one person.  This adds nothing to the conversation, and is actually a bigger distraction than anything else.  

I do not agree.  Making incendiary statements without a basis in fact is not productive.  Using insulting language is not productive.  But yes, if someone makes an argument which is philosophically similar to something the Nazis did, then it is correct to point that out.  Calling someone a Nazi by extension, however, is not appropriate.  Nobody has called Vladimir a Nazi, nor should they.

8 minutes ago, Sublime said:

IOh god another grammar nazi. Im in the lower just above poverty income bracket. I post on a cell. I have as much right to post as anyone else here and my grammar or posting is hardly bad even on my worst day. And you can always add me to the ignore list if you please. Seriously im not having a repeat of last years chiding because I dont type in perfect oxford english on a message board. If ppl dnt like it then dont read my posts. My grammar is hardly unreadable.

You do have the right to post without proper punctuation, spelling, and sometimes even understandable sentences.  However, people also have the right to ignore them because they find them too difficult to parse.

Steve

[LukeFF]

On 9/7/2016 at 5:21 PM, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

The National Training Center is pretty much in Death Valley California.  It was selected as a training installation for anti-aircraft units at first simply because it was a howling terrible open nothingness in which god neglected to place anything of value.  

Well, there is nearby Barstow...

[Lethaface]

14 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Ukraine is more like Trump becoming President and Mexico invading the border region, annexing LA, giving them the right to vote to join Mexico but not to stay with the US, then making war in other parts of the US while denying everything and yet claiming it is doing so to protect Mexicans from a fascist, anti-Latino ruler.

I would actually love to see that happen to Trump  Not the actual war, just him facing a Mexican invasion going for his scalp. 

[Sublime]

Steve- exactly and as I pointed out to the grammar Nazis last year and now there is an ignore function and I really could care less how many people add me to it. Especially if its over grammar. 9/10ths of the time.my posts are legible and grammatically sufficient if not 100% percent correct and though not a veteran Ive been a board member over 16 yrs a BFC customer that long, am competent in all CMs; and would say I have an above average though far from excellent knowledge of history. Therefore i think its ridiculous and really similar to a whataboutism to dismiss an argument or statement I made because I misspelled two words and use periods instead of apostrophes because I can type way faster that way.  Now i dont care if said argument is ignored because the grammar nazis but I take issue when my knowledge of history or exposure of stuff outside Murica is challenged I answer and its ignored then the reason given for being ignored isnt - oh sh*t i was wrong you.ve seen several Russian war movies and other foreign ones and I was wrong and grammar is used instead as an excuse.

 

To the Ukraine -  im genuinely curious as to why Russian propaganda has become so laughably bad. I mean yes thw cold war stuff was far fetched or the literature was so dry that everyone would pretend to understand it because it was so crushingly boring. Still in all my reading of the Cold War Ive never seen the level of downright ineptness at lying propaganda. This is a serious question what happened?!

They bought it off eBay? Really? No cluster bombs ( pic of cluster bombs on plane in back ) nvm cluser vombs

[Erwin]

Hey, at least you weren't put in a basket of despicables lol.

[IICptMillerII]

5 hours ago, hattori said:

Many of you are ripping Vlad a new one for Russia's actions in Ukraine

We are ripping Vlad because, after 53 pages and over 1,000 responses, he is STILL spouting the same tired drivel attempting to excuse what Russia is doing. If he said, "Yeah what we're doing is wrong but I still support it because I'm Russian" well then fine. Thats his opinion, and I can have my opinion on that, but thats all it is. But he isn't doing that. He is trying to excuse and justify the actions of his country. That is what has led to such a long thread, and the 'ripping of Vlad.'

5 hours ago, hattori said:

it is very hypocritical to get as aggressive as you guys are getting considering how illegal and wrong the 2003 Iraq invasion was

Wrong? Up for debate, but you can certainly hold that as an opinion. Illegal? No. 

While the UN did not endorse the invasion, there is a clause in the UN charter that allows member states to act independently of the UN if they feel threatened, or some such legalese. More importantly, the invasion was voted on and approved by the US congress.

Everyone gets hung up on the whole WMD debate. 'Bush lied to us! There were no WMDs!' Except that there were. In the month or so leading up to the invasion, Saddam got rid of some, trucked more to Syria, and buried a bunch in the middle of the desert. Its also important to point out that in May of 2004 (after the invasion) 3 US servicemen were wounded by an artillery shell that had sarin gas in it. They had to be properly decontaminated as well as treated for their wounds. There were other instances of service members being wounded by chemical agents during the occupation. Here are some links to a few of them:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html?_r=0

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/middleeast/army-apologizes-for-handling-of-chemical-weapon-exposure-cases.html

http://www.newsweek.com/how-us-nerve-gassed-its-own-troops-then-covered-it-317250

Did we find warehouses full of nukes and enough chemical weapons to sterilize Europe? No, but we did find chemical weapons, we know there are more buried out in the desert which will probably be lost to time, and more still went to Syria.

As I stated eariler, whether or not invading Iraq in 2003 was a good thing to do is totally debatable. I have my own opinions on the matter, as I'm sure most here do as well. But it was not illegal. 

6 hours ago, hattori said:

Guys, the west is far from perfect, and I can see from Vlad's point of view how ridiculous it is that America can do these things, and then freak out when Russia does, especially in his mind that his cause is far more justified.

This is completely true. The West is not a perfect place. No where is. But as other have stated many times, just because the US did some bad thing in 18-whatever, or Britain did some awful thing in 17-whatever, is no excuse to do bad things yourself. "People have murdered before, so I can beat up this old lady and steal her car. Its not the worst thing anyone has ever done so its ok for me to do that." No. Thats not how the world works. By that logic, any nation could do any number of terrible things to one another, just as long as its not on the same level as the Holocaust. 

The point is, there is no excuse for what Russia is doing in Ukraine. None. 

[hattori]

Cry me a river about having to put up with Vlad having a different opinion than you.  I had to put up with MURICA!!!! for like a decade after 2003 before the majority of you guys finally started coming around to your senses and realized, "oh crap, maybe we were in the wrong there".  

I also suppose you don't see the irony of

15 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

He is trying to excuse and justify the actions of his country.

followed by you trying to excuse and justify the actions of your country in an equally comical manner.  Perhaps even more ridiculous.

 

[IICptMillerII]

8 minutes ago, hattori said:

Cry me a river about having to put up with Vlad having a different opinion than you.  I had to put up with MURICA!!!! for like a decade after 2003 before the majority of you guys finally started coming around to your senses and realized, "oh crap, maybe we were in the wrong there".  

I also suppose you don't see the irony of

followed by you trying to excuse and justify the actions of your country in an equally comical manner.  Perhaps even more ridiculous.

 

Well, Hitler caused the Holocaust and invaded like 6 countries man, so the US invasion of Iraq is ok because Hitler did it way worse. 500,000 dead Iraqis isn't even close to 11,000,000 killed in concentration camps, so it was totally justified because it wasn't as bad as what Hitler did. Also, there was an English speaker in Baghdad, so we had to invade in order to protect a fellow English speaker. (/s)

Am I justified enough for you now? 

Edited September 15, 2016 by IICptMillerII

[shift8]

8 hours ago, kinophile said:

Actually you're totally wrong, and very uninformed. They can.  Try telling that to Catalonia. It's a human rights to decide your regions future. 

The key is secede PEACEFULLY.

Scotland held a a referendum and peacefully voted to stay part of the UK. Now that the UK has list Ursaki mind and voted to leave the EU,  where as SC thank voted heavily in favour of staying in the EU,  it's very likely that there will be a second referendum. Weather it succeeds is wide open,  but it can be held,  the Scots have the natural right to hold it,  and by golly the UK had better let them or there could quickly be an escalation to Maidan-esqe protests.and it's not like the Rangers and Celtics don't know how to fight..  :-)

Catalonia is well along its own path to secede/regional autonomy from Spain,  but they face a tougher prospect as legally (through laws specifically put in place by Madrid)  they can't even hold a referendum on holding a referendum! They can poll,  but it has no legal status,  according to Madrid. But that's not stopping them. They're pretty damn committed. 

A good contrast is Northern Ireland. There,  the idea of holding a referendum on joining the Republic would cause a gmstorm of violence and bombings. For it to even be mooted the current generation will need to essentially die off, as the pro-UK of the population are very determined to stay. This is a situation where there is a strong popular sentiment against leaving,  as opposed to laws/edictsemplaced and  enforced by an outside,  far off government. 

Now,  I don't know myself,  but I think secession is legally banned in the US? But the flip side is that there is strong local/state autonomy, which provides a release of pressure.

In the case of Catalonia they do not have that autonomy. Scotland now has much more control over its affairs,  through Devolution, but still -  independence is desired. 

I'd vote that if a Government has managed to piss off an entire region of people the  it's doing something profoundly wrong and needs to pause and reassess. 

O

Now,  this sounds like a vote in favour of the Separatists in the Donbass,  and it would be,  if they were actually separatists. But Russia manufactured, inflamed and prolonged the unrest to cover an invasion. Which moves things out of the realm of political discourse a la Scotland/Catalonia and into preventing an illegal,  foreign agitated seccession and foreign invasion.

Which is the whole rationale for the ATO. 

This is illogical rubbish. 

Secession can only be done legitimately if either the formation of the nation was not originally self determined, or if the nation state as a whole agrees with the secession. Or if at time of formation the seceding portion had a clause granting it the right to separate if it so desired later.  The seceding portion cannot secede on its own. Otherwise you would have endless disintegration until you have defacto anarchy. Period. End of Story. Full stop.