Russian army under equipped?

[Lethaface]

8 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Vladivostok, is majority Russian... I don't see a viable portion of Chinese people in Vladivostok with any claim to it. So the will of the people wont be to join China. Where as Crimea, is a totally different case compared to what you just said.

Yes it is (now), but in theory the election could turn out like that. Especially when a military occupation has just occurred...

Edited August 12, 2016 by Lethaface

[kraze]

51 minutes ago, hattori said:

@kraze In all fairness though, how many Americans believed the line about WMDs in Iraq, and for how long?  How many believed that Iraq sponsored al-qaeda, and that also made the 2003 attack legal?  I wouldn't be too quick to rush to judgement on others for believing their government's propaganda.

I can't speak for americans since I'm neither one, nor is the one, who has compatriots murdered by them, but as a "bystander" I can say for sure that I clearly remember massive anti-war protests right from the start. At least that proves that as people US citizens are a lot more conscious versus russians, who at most are able to gather a hundred, but most of the time it's not even a dozen people, who don't want their country murder people in another country.

In other words - a lot of americans were anti-war and thought it to be wrong, while russian anti-war sentiment is so non-existent might as well say they are all in support of the war.

[Lethaface]

8 minutes ago, kraze said:

I can't speak for americans since I'm neither one, nor is the one, who has compatriots murdered by them, but as a "bystander" I can say for sure that I clearly remember massive anti-war protests right from the start. At least that proves that as people US citizens are a lot more conscious versus russians, who at most are able to gather a hundred, but most of the time it's not even a dozen people, who don't want their country murder people in another country.

In other words - a lot of americans were anti-war and thought it to be wrong, while russian anti-war sentiment is so non-existent might as well say they are all in support of the war.

So you count people that dare to protest in a 'free' country and compare them to people that dare to protest in a country that is 'less free' and from there use that number to judge their consciousness on a country by country basis? 

Edited August 12, 2016 by Lethaface

[hattori]

The American citizens who were against the war were far in the minority, and basically portrayed as unpatriotic cowards.  The legislation to go to war passed with two thirds votes in congress and the senate.  My point is it is more common than not for citizens to believe their country's propaganda, including all western countries. 

You had previously asked how a Russian could believe some of the things the Russian government was telling them -- the exact same reason some Americans believed everything the U.S. government told them in 2003, and continued to believe for quite some time.

If you're going to predict what a country is going to do, you do have to make attempts to be very empathetic and put yourself in their shoes, from their viewpoint, not your own.  That's personally why I value Vlad's opinion.  He is the closest person to a native Russian that I hear from that talks about their point of view.  For example, it is interesting to me that he views Ukrainians still as "brothers" despite their differences.  It gives you a measure of how much war weariness the Russian population will accept over a fight for Ukraine -- they will probably have a much bigger stomach for losses than NATO's countries civilians.

 

[John Kettler]

Somewhere in this sea of text (couldn't find it as am fried and sleep deficient) there was a remark about a Ukrainian battalion being obliterated by Russian MRL fire. There is an important detail missing, for my recollection is that Ukrainian infantry battalion committed a colossal tactical mistaking by blithely encamping on the open steppe in tents, with no sandbags, foxholes, slit trenches or bunkers for protection. Bad decision when in enemy artillery range! This particular gaffe was reportedly quite the learning experience, but the lesson has been taken to heart by UKR ground force commanders.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited August 12, 2016 by John Kettler

[Splinty]

1 hour ago, hattori said:

The American citizens who were against the war were far in the minority, and basically portrayed as unpatriotic cowards.  The legislation to go to war passed with two thirds votes in congress and the senate.  My point is it is more common than not for citizens to believe their country's propaganda, including all western countries. 

You had previously asked how a Russian could believe some of the things the Russian government was telling them -- the exact same reason some Americans believed everything the U.S. government told them in 2003, and continued to believe for quite some time.

If you're going to predict what a country is going to do, you do have to make attempts to be very empathetic and put yourself in their shoes, from their viewpoint, not your own.  That's personally why I value Vlad's opinion.  He is the closest person to a native Russian that I hear from that talks about their point of view.  For example, it is interesting to me that he views Ukrainians still as "brothers" despite their differences.  It gives you a measure of how much war weariness the Russian population will accept over a fight for Ukraine -- they will probably have a much bigger stomach for losses than NATO's countries civilians.

 

Except it wasn't propaganda. The Bush administration was wrong, not lying. The actual propaganda in the Iraq war was that Bush lied. And as it turned out Bush wasn't all that wrong.

[hattori]

As I was saying, it is really difficult for people to not believe the propaganda their own government puts out

 

[Peter Cairns]

1 hour ago, Splinty said:

Bush wasn't all that wrong.

Oh this should be fun, what exactly did he get right????

Peter.

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Splinty said:

Except it wasn't propaganda. The Bush administration was wrong, not lying. The actual propaganda in the Iraq war was that Bush lied. And as it turned out Bush wasn't all that wrong.

That is debatable, but the fact is it is debated and no one gets locked up because they voice the opinion that he lied. 

[Ivanov]

3 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Somewhere in this sea of text (couldn't find it as am fried and sleep deficient) there was a remark about a Ukrainian battalion being obliterated by Russian MRL fire. There is an important detail missing, for my recollection is that Ukrainian infantry battalion committed a colossal tactical mistaking by blithely encamping on the open steppe in tents, with no sandbags, foxholes, slit trenches or bunkers for protection. Bad decision when in enemy artillery range! This particular gaffe was reportedly quite the learning experience, but the lesson has been taken to heart by UKR ground force commanders.

Regards,

John Kettler

John, keep in mind that the Ukrainians started ATO as a anti-terrorist/police operation. They had no idea that their units would be subjected to the cross border fire with DPICM or thermobaric munitions. And through the operation they were not allowed to conduct the counter-battery fire against the enemy batteries located inside of Russia.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Ivanov

[Ivanov]

5 minutes ago, Peter Cairns said:

Oh this should be fun, what exactly did he get right????

Peter.

As a side note - do you think that many people in Russia are having similar discussions about Putin's foreign policy adventures? 

[Splinty]

Peter , the labs, scientists, and technicians, were all still there. Saddam could have restarted his chemical warfare programs at any time he chose. He also deliberately let the world believe he still had an active chemical warfare program. Then of course there was all that truck traffic going to Syria in the run up to the invasion.

 

[John Kettler]

Ivanov,

Fair point, but to me, given what was going on and all the noises Russia was making, it still seems stupid. Besides, didn't the pro-Russian separatists themselves have Grad already? With any kind of artillery threat at all, you couldn't pay me to camp out like that.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Lethaface]

4 minutes ago, Splinty said:

Peter , the labs, scientists, and technicians, were all still there. Saddam could have restarted his chemical warfare programs at any time he chose. He also deliberately let the world believe he still had an active chemical warfare program. Then of course there was all that truck traffic going to Syria in the run up to the invasion.

Wow. Hell yes lets bomb countries because they got scientists that could make chemical weapons, never mind that we couldn't find any actual weapons or facilities. OOps!!! How come this ISIS here? 

[Ivanov]

10 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Ivanov,

Fair point, but to me, given what was going on and all the noises Russia was making, it still seems stupid. Besides, didn't the pro-Russian separatists themselves have Grad already? With any kind of artillery threat at all, you couldn't pay me to camp out like that.

Regards,

John Kettler

Initially the Ukrainians were supposed to chase off groups of thugs, that were armed only with baseball bats and firearms. That was the theory. They were expecting that the regular Russian army may intervene in an open fashion. But none could foresee, that the workers and peasants of Donbas would start hitting them back with precession artillery strikes

Edited August 12, 2016 by Ivanov

[TheForwardObserver]

I seem to recall a fair amount of lying, propaganda, and blind patriotism in the lead-up to the Iraq War.  I was surrounded by it.  I can also recall an extremely marginalized resistance.

[John Kettler]

Ivanov,

Not sure I'd use the word "precision" to characterize a BM-27 or BM-30 strike. YMMMV, though.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ivanov]

2 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Ivanov,

Not sure I'd use the word "precision" to characterize a BM-27 or BM-30 strike. YMMMV, though.

Regards,

John Kettler

What about 9A52-4 Tornado? Through the conflict Russian artillery was able to hit dug in individual Ukrainian tanks.

 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

1 hour ago, hattori said:

As I was saying, it is really difficult for people to not believe the propaganda their own government puts out

 

Just because I'm bored and think this isn't a totally off the wall opinion:

The Iraq war had some propoganda involved just as much as any democratic country has.  The question is how much of it was KNOWINGLY patently false.  We have no problem with propaganda that played up Germans as baby eating monsters, because honestly they ate more than a few babies and needed to be beat back down.  If Saddam was a threat, and he did continue to have chemical weapons, going to war to defeat him might have been something that merited a little cheerleading.

As the case was, from what I feel any honest assessment of the lead up to the war involved was not a deliberate attempt to convince the world of a non-fact (Iraq has WMDs) but a flawed intelligence and political system that earnestly believed Iraq was a threat, and was in violation of international law to the degree military action was worthwhile.  Because it started from that position, and then sought out/rejected intelligence based upon the "known" that of COURSE Iraq had weapons, we just needed to find them, it ensured that the very true information that Iraq was a non-threat would be discarded in favor of sources that affirmed what was "true."

This is a great study in how systems fail, and should be studied and understood for the benefit of future generations.  Simply dismissing it as a matter of propaganda by the Bush-Hitler complex misses that even now the same cycle of conclusion driving "fact" has, is, and likely will repeat until we really revise how we handle intelligence.

Where this ties back into the Ukraine is 100% totally and entirely the Russian government knew there were no real rebels of consquence in the Ukraine, but instead manufactured an entire reality to suite their purposes, and continues to push it.  It would only really be comparable to Iraq if you could prove Bush knew there were no CBRN type weapons in Iraq, AND then continued to lie about their presence years on.  

[TheForwardObserver]

And I believe the Intel was cooked, as part of a massive PR campaign to rally support behind an illegal invasion.

[John Kettler]

Ivanov,

Are you saying this was done using SFW payloads fired from the Tornado? If so, I can well believe it, since I'm familiar with the US system Skeet and have seen firing trials of the Russian equivalent. If not, then what is it you're saying?

Skeet

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited August 13, 2016 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Ivanov,

Since I couldn't get rid of the SFW video, I had to wait to put this one up. Here is a thorough explanation of of the BLU-108 CBU, which uses the Skeet submunition. After seeing this, tankers may wish to walk! The US savaged an Iraqi armored column during OIF using these. 

It's supposed to be a green weapon (no UXO), but this report shows this not to be the case. That said, this isn't a Russian concern. Just ask the Afghanisi!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ivanov]

28 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Ivanov,

Are you saying this was done using SFW payloads fired from the Tornado? If so, I can well believe it, since I'm familiar with the US system Skeet and have seen firing trials of the Russian equivalent. If not, then what is it you're saying?

 

What I meant, is that Russians were also using more advanced MLRS than BM-21 or BM-30. However the MLRS systems were used for  the aerial attacks, at times equipped with the DPICM:

But there were also instances that Russians were firing something much more advanced, possible the 30F39 Krasnopol or something similar.

[Splinty]

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Wow. Hell yes lets bomb countries because they got scientists that could make chemical weapons, never mind that we couldn't find any actual weapons or facilities. OOps!!! How come this ISIS here? 

We did find facilities and we did find weapons. Old out dated weapons but weapons just the same. As for the facilities, Saddam wasn't allowed to have them, he did, along with the people to run them. Therefore he was in violation of UN Mandates.

[Battlefront.com]

8 hours ago, hattori said:

@kraze In all fairness though, how many Americans believed the line about WMDs in Iraq, and for how long?  How many believed that Iraq sponsored al-qaeda, and that also made the 2003 attack legal?  I wouldn't be too quick to rush to judgement on others for believing their government's propaganda.

People can be mislead.  People can believe things which they should know aren't true.  That is not a Russian problem, that is a Human problem.  The difference is that in the United States these things get debated and the truth, sometimes too late, comes out.  Future generations learn from these mistakes and that helps, but does not ensure, the nation will behave better in the future.  As a result each generation of Americans behave better in this small world of ours, even if far short of the ideals we Americans believe in.

Point of fact is that more than 1/4 of the Congress voted against the resolution to authorize military action.  Sometimes the winning side of a debate is wrong, but at least there was a debate.  In Russia, by contrast, Putin got the rubber stamp approval of the Duma to conduct military operations outside the borders of Russia *AFTER* Russian forces moved into Crimea.  Which is a funny thing that Russians seem to forget... not only was the invasion of Crimea in violation of international law, but it was also in violation of Russian law.

8 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

I read it and there are many faults to the article.

Just like there were faults in my arguments that Russian military units were fighting in Donbas?

Quote

 

But Steve, I'm getting fatigued from discussing this, and obviously we are still at opposites of each other on Ukraine. This won't change IMO, because I've seen enough to believe what I believe in

Such as there are no Russian forces fighting in Donbas?

You defended one of the most obvious lies for more than a year before you admitted you were even a little wrong.  It's taken almost another year to get you to admit how thoroughly wrong you were.  And even now you still try to downplay and disregard information about how thorough the Russian government actions within Donbas are, despite all the evidence.

You are not a stupid guy, but you don't know very much about what your country does.  Worse, you do not seem very interested in knowing.

Quote

Donbas region definitely wanted him to stay, but Kiev didn't. He made small mistakes which doomed him in, and made people believe in the EU cause in Kiev. Basically he nailed his own coffin with that one mistake he made.

Yanukovych ran a completely corrupt and inept government that was getting worse and also more repressive by the day.  He promised the people he would change and do what the majority wanted, which was to have stronger ties with the EU in addition to Russia.  The people demonstrated in huge numbers and he still did nothing to address their legitimate concerns.  He then tried to crack down on the protests with the use of force.  I'd call that more than "one mistake".

Quote

Of course, the western sponsored media helped this massively, also Poroshenko and many other groups helped fuel the flame.

Compared to the "Nazi" hysteria coming out of Russian media, the Western media looks like a cute little kitten compared to a rabid dog.  Plus, the Western news media's reports were largely factual, the Russian ones were pure fantasy.  Specifically that Ukraine wants to be less corrupt and is moving in that direction, not becoming a fascist state determined to kill and imprison people who speak Russian.

Quote

Yes legally Crimea was Ukrainian, I've been saying what Russia did in Crimea was illegal in international law. But if the people in Crimea was for it, I'm for it. 

We don't know for sure if the Crimean people were for it or not because the referendum was fake.  Best guess is that maybe 64% were in favor of joining Russia.  It might have been a little more or a little less, however it was probably 51% minimum.  That still leaves a very large chunk that was not in favor of annexation.  We'll never know because there never was a real referendum.

Quote

I will have no choice but to respect the choice of the people. And I'd be against the Russian government, if they didn't support the will of the people. It isn't right to go against the will of the people, even if it is breaking "laws" 

You say the Russian government supports the will of the people?  Are you saying that Russians enjoy being in one of the most corrupt nations on Earth?  That Russians like having one of the most inefficient and least free economies on Earth?  That Russians like having their government wage secret wars on foreign soil in violation of the Russian constitution?  That Russians like having their government lie about the most obvious things?  That Russians like having no alternative political voice?  That Russians like having a net outflow of young and educated people from their country because they don't want to live in Russia?  That Russians like being locked up for trying to peacefully and legally make their country a better place to live in?  That Russians like... well, I could go on and on and on, but I think I have made my point  

Do you really hold such a low opinion of yourself and other Russians that you support a government that is so unworthy of your support?

7 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Vladivostok, is majority Russian... I don't see a viable portion of Chinese people in Vladivostok with any claim to it. So the will of the people wont be to join China. Where as Crimea, is a totally different case compared to what you just said.

You dodged the question.  The question is how would you know if the "will of the people" was being respected when the conditions were predetermined by a foreign country before there was even a joke of a referendum?  And how would you react if someone took a piece of your country under such obviously illegitimate means?

In any case, it is undeniable that the pro-Ukrainians in Crimea were not asked if they wanted to be a part of Russia or not.  It is undeniable that Russia's actions were illegal under international law.  It is undeniable that Russia made ZERO attempts to take actions other than military force.

Steve